Original suggestion[]
Since the category of Borg Drones has been dropped from Picard and Seven of Nine, (which makes sense to me), perhaps we should remove all former Borg drones from that category and create a new one. While such articles may not be appropriate for a current Borg drones cat, I still think it is valuable to collect former drones in a cat.--31dot 21:48, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
- Logically a sub-cat of the current Borg one. Agreed. -- sulfur 22:00, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
After a second and no posted opposition, I've created this category. Further comments are welcome.--31dot 14:50, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree with the logic of this, as I don't think a whole lot of thought went into this in relation to how other categories are applied. If someone was once a Starfleet officer, or once served on a certain ship, but no longer does, we don't remove the category tag from their article. What if that ship was destroyed? Theoretically Category:USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D) personnel shouldn't exist, and the entire category should be under Category:Former USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D) personnel. But doing something like only complicates issues and would ultimately turn this whole site onto its side. Our logic here has always been to take the simplest most direct approach: if they've been part of something once, and we have a category for it, then they shall always remain in that category. R.M. Merik is classified here with a SF personnel tag but washed out and moved on with his life, we still never forgot something he once was. Worf, for example, and as far as we know, as of Star Trek Nemesis, is no longer a member of the Category:USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D) personnel | Category:Klingon military personnel | Category:Deep Space 9 personnel | Category:IKS Rotarran personnel | Category:Ambassadors | Category:Governors, rather than a "Former [insert previous category here]". (Hell, technically, he may never even become a Governor, so how can we apply a perspective differentiating current and former borg drones, when we are at the same time categorizing someone with something they haven't become yet?) Finally, what of Benjamin Sisko, how should we apply the category system to him? He is a Prophet, nothing more, nothing less, but especially nothing that he was once categorized as.
- As an aside, why exactly are Locutus of Borg and Jean-Luc Picard apart in two separate articles, yet Seven of Nine and Annika Hansen are one, or Third of Five and Hugh, and several other drone/former drone combinations? Another lapse in consistency. --Alan 20:05, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
I only suggested this as a response to removing Picard and Seven from the Borg drones cat, which was done on the reasoning that they weren't Borg when we last saw them. I was just trying to go with what else had been going on regarding this issue and acting on my belief that it is still valuable to have this information grouped together.
I would argue that being a Borg is different than being a Starfleet officer or a member of the Enterprise-D crew. It's forced on you, and its reversal is the exception rather than the rule, which makes it noteworthy. It's not noteworthy(in terms of categories) when or how someone left Starfleet, or if the Enterprise-D doesn't exist anymore.
Again, I was just following the logic of what had been done already. If we want to change it back, I can live with that, but we should get this matter fleshed out first.
Regarding Worf's categorization, I think that if the POV of MA is omniscient, that there is nothing wrong with categorizing people as what they were depicted as in an alternate timeline. Otherwise, what time or year would be deemed as the cutoff?--31dot 20:44, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
- If the omniscient is indeed the approach we are taking, then should be applied universally, and this new category is as irrelevant as the rest I just "made up" for this discussion. And yes, my removal of the drone category from the Seven of Nine page was an MA:POINT attempt, solely for the purpose of getting a discussion started, because the old fashioned post and wait doesn't usually work, at least not as well discuss little, change a lot approach. :) --Alan 21:04, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, I appreciate the attention you are bringing, as I'd like to get some decision settled on with this as well, as someone whose been involved.--31dot 21:11, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
- Categories are supposed to make it easy to find information. This subcategory is sensible, useful and builds the web. I reject the comparison to "Former crew of a ship that was destroyed" for a couple of reasons, but the strongest one is that there are no current crew of such, therefore no subcategorizing would be warranted. Besides that, I don't buy that the more-simply-named category "shouldn't exist" - we use the simplest names we can. There wouldn't be any reason to name that category with a pedantic extra qualifier which only would beg the question. In the given example of "Former Starfleet personnel", I ask, why the Xmas should there not be such a subcategory? Is anyone afraid of the idea that, since categories don't nest, such a person as Merik could be categorized as both "SF personnel" and "former SF personnel"? That Hugh could be found if I were to look up Drones as well as Former drones? Whatevs. Let's inform and entertain, not obscure valid data. --TribbleFurSuit 09:16, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Janeway and Torres...Really Drones?[]
Should they be on this list? Their bodies were assimilated ("Unimatrix Zero"), but not their minds. Assimilation always involves both mind and body; they remained Janeway and Torres. Therefore, technically, they were never Borg drones, unlike say, Tuvok, who was assimilated in both mind and body, therefore did become an actual drone. – Watching... listening... 18:21, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
- You're probably correct in a strict sense, as that would be like saying Arne Darvin should be categorized as a human. That said, weren't they Borg for a few seconds, before their drugs kicked in to allow their individuality to take over?(I haven't seen it recently.)--31dot 00:14, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Hmmmm...maybe they were. I have the episode on DVD. I'll watch it again to make sure. – Watching... listening... 16:02, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Rename[]
I'd rather see this changed, then to lamely name every 5 minute Borg (like Tuvok and Torres) an "XB" as their species.--Alan (talk) 03:29, February 15, 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, I kinda think we need to remove all Borg stuff from any species slots until these new terms are more clearly defined. We can change the category name to xB to appease the masses, but Hugh's original species is still unknown, or nameless. - Archduk3 03:44, February 15, 2020 (UTC)
- No, it doesn't really do that at all; we just tend to be on the too literal side of the spectrum for subtlety in world building.
- That aside, there is the issue of the Unimatrix Zero Borg, as there aren't really "Ex" Borg if they still are Borg, or at least undercover Borg. Same with Lore's followers, they aren't connected to the Collective anymore, but they aren't removing implants or trying not to be Borg. I also doubt that Picard/Janeway/Torres/Tuvok are considered xBs, since they aren't visibly Ex Borg. This category may still have a function, or we may need something else for the others. - Archduk3 18:06, February 15, 2020 (UTC)
Well, Hugh was one of those ex-Lore followers too, and we see what happened with him, he's the poster child for the term. But maybe you're right, this should be held until more is explained about what really constitutes an xB. (Also, related or not, the term "ex-Borg" was used in "The Disease".)
Also, regarding Janeway/Torres/Tuvok, they, unlike Picard, weren't ever integrated into the Collective. --Alan (talk) 19:47, February 18, 2020 (UTC)
"Yes" to what, exactly? "Ex-Borg", "xB" or "former Borg drone" (which was also a term used). --Alan (talk) 20:34, February 18, 2020 (UTC)
- Waiting would be my instinct as well. There's a good chance this weeks episode clarifies some of this stuff thanks to Seven, and in any case things are likely to be a lot clearer by the time Picard/Seven and the Artifact plotline join together. Right now, the nature of things is being kept ambiguous on purpose. -- Capricorn (talk) 12:39, February 19, 2020 (UTC)
I see someone went ahead and pegged Torres/Tuvok/Janeway as xBs. Is this accurate? Was the definition updated this past episode? As of now, I am gathering the understanding that xBs would be ones harvested for components, never got the feeling those three went through that type of "upgrade". Also, now that I think about it, how might Phlox fit into this? Wasn't he somehow partially but unsuccessfully assimilated in "Regeneration"? --Alan (talk) 12:26, February 21, 2020 (UTC)
- The last episode only referenced Picard and Seven as Ex-Borg and former Borg. xB wasn't even mentioned. - Archduk3 13:06, February 21, 2020 (UTC)
On that note "ex-Borg" was redirected to xB, perhaps incorrectly. --Alan (talk) 13:32, February 21, 2020 (UTC)
- Isn't xB just an abbreviation for ex-Borg? JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 17:14, February 22, 2020 (UTC)
I feel like that's all been said before. --Alan (talk) 14:41, February 25, 2020 (UTC)
- As of the latest PIC episode there seem to be four terms for the same thing: "ex-Borg", "former Borg", "free Borg", and "xB". Time may tell which one is used most often. -- UncertainError (talk) 00:40, February 29, 2020 (UTC)
- After "The Impossible box", oppose. That first conversation between Picard and Hugh make it very clear that "xB" is only a thing in Hugh's flock, while former borg is a more widely understood term. -- Capricorn (talk) 21:43, February 29, 2020 (UTC)
- TRR: "The Impossible Box" was pretty clear that xB was short for ex-Borg, so having that redirect there might not be the worst idea, unless we want it for an article. At this point I think we have enough not-Borg Borgs to discuss the topic without just duplicating the category. Former Borg and ex-Borg seem to be used interchangeably in PIC, but I couldn't tell you which one is used more without watching most of VOY again. Since we have some pretty clear definitions now, I take it we are looking at keeping this as is, or maybe switching to Ex-Borg if that term ends up used more, and changing the image category to match. - Archduk3 21:39, March 6, 2020 (UTC)
According to February 18th me, "ex-Borg" was only used once in VOY ("The Disease"). Also in reference to the other term "former Borg", it was used by a former Borg (Riley Frazier) to describe the Cooperative Borg in "Unity"; and, the former Borg (Two of Nine) called Seven of Nine a former Borg in "Survival Instinct". So I there's an overwhelming 2:1 vote on terminology usage there from VOY. Otherwise, in casual conversation, it was references as "(when) you were a Borg." --Alan (talk) 10:59, March 14, 2020 (UTC)