Talk: Quotes

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Memorable Quote guidelines[]

I've noticed that practically every episode summary has a "Memorable Quotes" section. I was wondering if there were any unwritten rules about what makes a quote sufficiently "memorable". When is it appropriate to remove a quote that I feel is a poor choice, or to add one that I feel would enhance the article? Any thoughts? Tired 23:26, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no real guideline that I know of. Personally, if you think it is a good one, add it. Technically, you could just remove one if you think it not a good one (although you would still have to leave an explanation in the edit summary, or someone like me might revert you, me being evil and all that). I personally think a better way to go about removing one is to first bring it up on the talk page, see what others think. There may be a reason for having it that you are missing, or everyone might agree and want it gone, but at least it is discussed first and there is no edit war over it. I hate edit wars. --OuroborosCobra ^talk 23:31, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

While this would probably be impossible to establish, and equally impossible for anyone to actually care enough to read, but it think we should at least establish minimal guidelines for this, for example "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" has 15 quotes, several quite large in length. Others with minimal context lose a lot of their meaning, and almost make the quote pointless. [1]

Just a thought. --Alan 23:39, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. In some articles the memorable quotes are taking over a bit. Guidelines please.

My own view: less is definitely more. For example, one of the most powerful quotes ever (IMHO) in Star Trek is the assertion "There are four lights!". However, without knowing the background, the quote is almost meaningless.

I also think that, where possible, quotes should be arranged in the order that they appear during the episode. Vivienne marcus 11:27, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

You know what, everyone? I don't agree that establishing the "context" of memorable quotes is necessary, desirable, or sensible. The memorable quote is "There are four lights". If you have to pad that off with lines of dialogue establishing that he's being tortured, then setting up the contradiction about how many lights he's supposed to say there are, THEN finally denouing with "There are four lights", then you've completely obscured the actual memorable part, actually making it LESS memorable, and you've made the problem described above worse. One 15-line "quote" is as bad as 15 one-liners. Wait, no, it's worse, because you've taken up space that could have been used for actual memorable quotes. But, sorry, we're out of time. The right way to establish context is in the attribution, where, after you say who said the line(s), you can describe the circumstance. Far, far more economical, and avoids dilution of the actual quote. A good example is this:

"Assimilate THIS!"

- Worf, before blowing up the interplexing beacon floating off the Enterprise's deflector dish

instead of

"look, the borg thingy. they must be stopped"

"i dont want them to get away"

"shoot it"

"assimilate this"

- Picard and Worf

The reason I'm pointing out the RIGHT way and the WRONG way (my own opinion) to establish context is that lately I've seen some edits to existing good memorable quotes that made me cringe [2], [3], . And the reason I say that I don't even think context is automatically good, especially if we have to jump through tortured hoops to establish it, is that if the quote is memorable, it should stand on its own two feet, and also, if a reader doesn't remember the quote (they either never saw/heard it or they did but still don't remember) then it's not MA's job to paint them a picture, if our ham-fisted fingerprints ruin it. Anybody see "Workforce"? Remember how Tuvok wrecked Jaffen's story? "Yes, well, when you explain it like that, it's not funny at all." Let's not be a crippled Tuvok. --TribbleFurSuit 03:32, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Here here Mr. FurSuit. I completely agree with your statement about surrounding quotes. The most recent one I've seen is here. The first version was entirely adequate and made the point. The additions just ruined the initial memorable quote. – Morder 03:36, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Amen, brother. It's memorable quotes, not memorable scenes. --TribbleFurSuit

You both seem to agree that to attempt to set the scene for a memorable quote is a pointless and unhelpful exercise.

By their nature, memorable quotes are subjective. I do not think they are encyclopaedic. I think episodes should speak for themselves. We all already know the truly memorable quotes- that's why they are memorable. There seems no need to point them out for the benefit of people who (1) haven't seen that episode or (2) don't think that particular quote is brilliant.

I think most of Star Trek is good. I think some of it is very good, and a very small amount is truly exceptional and outstanding (while a small amount is utter piffle). I think that if we are to put anything in MA, it should be the exceptional quotes (of which, IMHO, there are on average less than one per episode). The volume of quotes we have is already way too high for these to be the exceptional ones.Vivienne marcus 13:18, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I propose a limit on the number of memorable quotes allowed on each episode's page. How about no more than five memorable quotes per page. 5 may be an arbitrary number, and maybe a different number should be decided on, but I do think having a solid limit is a good idea. Certainly there are some episodes with more than 5 worth quotes, in this case, 1 or 2 quotes over the limit could be added, with a discussion board approval. — Vince47 06:38, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I understand the desire for a limit, but I think such a thing could result in needless edit wars over which quotes should be allowed and which shouldn't be. In the Jean-Luc Picard article there was a massive debate over one single quote, which was only settled by ending the debate and leaving the article quoteless.

Instead of having a hard and fast limit maybe some standards could be set. We have some informally already, here's some just off the top of my head.

No memorable scenes/exchanges. If you can't recapture the memory in one or two quotes, it's not too memorable.
A quote shouldn't just point out something that is funny or interesting. There should be something behind it.
The space for quotes shouldn't be as long or longer than the summary.--31dot 12:14, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Request for comments — Morder 02:12, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Again, maybe 5 wasn't the right number, but I do think some kind of "soft, rule of thumb" guideline for the number of quotes is in order. You have to draw the line somewhere.— Vince47 04:46, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Quote order?[]

I think this is an excellent starting place, and seems pretty close to being final IMO. I would say that instead of the third letter in the second sentence it should be the fourth.......--31dot 02:24, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Um, guys. What's the logic behind this?

"In a quotes section, they need not be in any order, but if an order is needed, they should be in alphabetical order by the third letter in the second sentence in each quote."

Sounds...random to me. "Third letter in second sentence"? – Cleanse 03:23, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

To be honest, it was meant as a bit of a joke when Morder and I were discussing it in the first place. I didn't expect him to actually use it. :)

Nor do I expect it to be in the final draft. -- sulfur 03:30, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

LOL. Just checking in case I was missing something blindingly obvious. It's been known to happen. ;-) – Cleanse 03:32, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Updated[]

I feel that the guidelines are fairly well defined with leeway available when needed. Any other changes before we implement this? — Morder 05:13, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm just wondering why the order the quotes appear in the episode is only a suggestion.....this would seem to be a good way to organize them. I guess my question is, when isn't an order needed?

My personal opinion is that instead of saying "5 or 6" quotes we should say one or the other and leave less room for argument. Not a big deal to me, though.

I wonder if we should have a section addressing the removal of disputed/unneeded quotes to the talk page, just so everyone is aware.--31dot 02:31, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Those are just my thoughts; I do accept the way it is now. I do think it's ready if that's what people want.--31dot 02:32, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

If i may, I dont think setting the number of quotes at something specific like 5 or 6 is a good idea. This will create issues and endless debates on discussion sections over what quote is more relevant as opposed to another (since the number of quotes is being limited here) and then someone will think that in their opinion this one line a character said is a great quote, while someone else will think it isnt etc etc. You get the picture. I would seriously leave out the number of quotes each episode should have, because it will depend on the episode and length and context etc. Ask people to use common sense, which was done in the previous section. You cant just add in a number and expect all the hundreds of episodes and movies in Star Trek to adhere/being confined to that narrow definition.– Distantlycharmed 02:44, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

The policy does state that the number is not set in stone(well, in a data rod. ;) ) and can be adjusted if an episode warrants it.--31dot 02:47, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, but I can already see situations arising where someone will quote this policy and the number 6 and will want serious evidence as to why a new quote in addition to the sixth one is required. And then there'll be debates over it. I just think it would be wise to avoid that. Maybe it can be reworded or the average number of quotes should be increased to ten at least to make room for such contingencies.– Distantlycharmed 02:57, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

That's why it says that more can be used if called for, and that the number isn't a hard, solid number. Any time you try to use "six" as a hard number, it can't be used that way. -- sulfur 03:04, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

The "short quotes" and "one sentence" rules[]

I have been posting many quotes on the wiki, but some of them have been removed simply because they were too long or had too many sentences. Well, let me explain something: these rules are not exactly being followed on the wiki regardless. I have come across many pages with quotes that are very long and others with up to seven sentences, yet they seem memorable to me, and the fact that they are still kept there means that they must be memorable. What I am saying is that there must be some exceptions to the rule, and I would like to know if that is true and if so what they are. Nicholasemjohnson (talk) 04:19, November 14, 2012 (UTC)

You're right- this is a volunteer project and as such there might be a few long quotes out there that don't follow the policy, as they were likely put there before the policy was made, or they just haven't been removed yet. If you have to put an entire paragraph, it's not too memorable. Getting to specifics I don't really see what was memorable about the paragraph you posted at the Equinox page. 31dot (talk) 04:23, November 14, 2012 (UTC)

Rationale for limiting?[]

What, exactly, is the rationale for limiting the amount of quotations on episode articles? In the case of Star Trek, full episode transcripts are available elsewhere online, and it's not like we're doing that. Some Wikia wikis even include such full episode transcripts for other series, so I don't know why we limit the memorable quotes for Trek. --Defiant (talk) 12:13, December 17, 2018 (UTC)

"Memorable quotes"[]

From: Talk:That Hope Is You, Part 1 (episode)

We really, really, REALLY need to have a discussion about 1) what constitutes a "memorable quote", 2) how long is reasonable for a memorable quote (i.e. they're supposed to be memorable quotes, NOT memorable scenes), and 3) how many is reasonable for any given episode. IMO, there's no way a 20-25 minute LD episode should warrant as many quotes as a 2-hour movie, and quotes shouldn't be 15 lines of dialogue. Sulfur and I had a chat about the subject, and he suggested something along the lines of "there may be a maximum of 1 quote per 4 minutes of video", which would allow for ~5-6 for LD episodes, 10-12 for most shows, and perhaps 20-25 for movies. From this episode alone (by far, not the most egregious), we have:

"Damn!"

- Burnham, after she is sprayed by a stimulant

Memorable? "Damn"?

"I'm dying to talk about it, I'm dying to talk about it because today does not happen to people… ever. I might be angry about it. I'm supportive. I mean I'm so supportive! I am reflexively supportive, and what is that about? I'm overcompensating. I gotta talk to someone. You need to sit. Can you sit? It's a super cool story, it's just in a completely devastating way! HA!"

- Burnham, about her experience

Is anybody really going to remember that a year from now, or even a week from now?

"I'm not a commissioned officer. You see, my father was. His father before him. But unlike them, I was never officially sworn in. There has been no one to do it. Yet I watch this office everyday, as I have got 40 years, believing one day, others like me would walk through that door, that my hope was not in vain. Today is that day, and that hope is you, Commander Burnham."

- Sahil

Same... is this really memorable in any way? And here's one from LD: "Veritas":

"I need you to tell me that your senior officers are infallible heroes!"

"Well they're not, and that's okay. We all joined Starfleet to dive first into the unknown. We're explorers, of course we don't always know what's going on. Did Picard know about the Borg? Did Kirk know about that giant Spock on Phylos? Did Dr. Crusher know about that ghost in the lamp thing from the Scottish planet that she hooked up with that one time? That whole thing. You clearly want us to say that the captain and her crew messed up, but we simply don't have the full story, and that's the truth! Whatever they did, I guarantee you it was all for good. You have shown no evidence that they're guilty of a crime, in fact, I find you guilty of trying to take them down with this sham of a trial! DRUMHEAD!"

- Clar and Boimler

Ummm... to begin with, anything this long is just too much text to be memorable, and even if it was shorter, is it really memorable?

I could go on, and on, and on... this has been out of control for a while now, and it seems to be getting worse over time. -- Renegade54 (talk) 20:49, October 15, 2020 (UTC)

What quotes should stay on this article? -- User:Forgottrek 23:23, October 15, 2020 (UTC)

Especially when they and {{aquote}}s are being used as a lazy substitution for actual article content. Prime example: Aditya Sahil page, with four bulky quotes with minimal content, rather than extracting information from the quotes and actually writing an article. --Alan (talk) 00:08, October 16, 2020 (UTC)

The guideline, not policy, is to keep these to less than a scene, not to forbid a good Kirk/Picard style speech. If anything, we should want those on the page because Lucien knows some people can't even be bothered to watch a clip of these these days. The speech in "The Drumhead" is the most memorable part of that episode, that's why it's the joke in "Veritas", and you're saying because it offends some magic number of words to you that we should forgo it for Worf's quippy one liners. I'm absolutely opposed to that, and the guideline only suggests that if you don't read the rest of the text for the first point. If anything, the first point is about not putting in full exchanges between characters.

That said, I'm fine with suggesting a cap of 5 quotes per "half hour", but I'm not going to bother to enforce it. Most LD episodes have more to say than most episodes of DIS or PIC, and I'm not interested in pretending the writing of those are of comparable quality. If anything, TAS and LD have to give you better dialog simply because they don't have the time to show you. - Archduk 3 14:25, October 16, 2020 (UTC)

Let's be honest, the "Veritas" quote that's memorable is in the middle of all that:

"We're explorers, of course we don't always know what's going on. Did Picard know about the Borg? Did Kirk know about that giant Spock on Phylos? Did Dr. Crusher know about that ghost in the lamp thing from the Scottish planet that she hooked up with that one time?"

"I find you guilty of trying to take them down with this sham of a trial! DRUMHEAD!"

Those are the two memorable parts, the rest, not so much. And that's at least part of the problem that we're currently seeing on these pages. My suggestion to R54 was more of a rule of thumb rather than something to be strictly adhered to. Of course there are episodes where there are going to be 20 amazing one-liners. Of course there are episodes where a long monologue is memorable. But let's be honest, those are usually the exceptions to the rule. -- Sulfur (talk) 14:44, October 16, 2020 (UTC)

And it should go without saying that they've been exceptionally excessive lately. I think the fact that they've been overwhelming and lackluster in memorability is what has been the biggest problem lately. --Alan (talk) 15:12, October 16, 2020 (UTC)

I'm actually going to have to disagree with you specifically about that speech. I think LD is a great show because it wraps good memorable Star Trek messages around the jokes. I was just talking to someone about that particular speech the other day in what remains of the real world, so, for now at least, I'm going to have to say that was pretty memorable.

That said, point taken, but how is that really different than what we have now? I do tend to agree the situation is a bit out of hand recently, see my link above, but I'm not seeing a good solution. It's still completely up to the reader to agree or not, and there isn't a clear standard to point to other than the reader's opinion for inclusion or removal. Enforcement is still impractical at best if we don't have something clearly defined to point to. Limiting quotes to an arguably arbitrary number may just be pushing the buck down the road, but it would have the practical benefit of at least drawing a line in the sand for content in an article itself. That would require bumping MA:QUOTE up from "an enforceable guideline" to a "compliance is required policy" though, and I'm not really interested in doing that.

Now, if only there was some way to make those stupid polls just show the "top X quotes" based on votes there might actually be a purpose for those... - Archduk 3 15:46, October 16, 2020 (UTC)

Please understand, I never meant to suggest or imply that either our current quote guideline (and it *is* a guideline, not anything absolute) or Sulfur's suggestion should be a hard and fast rule; like most guidelines and policies here, there are always exceptions. I'm *not* saying there is or should be a magic number of words, or even a magic number of quotes per episode or anything like that; some episodes in and of themselves are much more memorable that others, and I'd expect a memorable episode to have more and better quotes than a lesser one. I do agree completely with Alan's assessment directly above; I think he hits the nail squarely on the head. And I'm not even sure that the quote guideline needs to change, or if it does, it may only need tweaked. Keep in mind, also, that this is only my opinion; if the consensus is that what we've been seeing as far as memorable quotes lately is ok and what we want, then I'm fine with that; what's memorable to me may not be memorable to someone (or anyone!) else, and vice versa. -- Renegade54 (talk) 15:56, October 16, 2020 (UTC)

Don't worry, I get it. I'm the guy who thinks we shouldn't have those sections at all while also being the guy behind the article and production article quote templates, and as far as I can remember the only admin still pushing for us to use the quote template too if we are going to have those sections. This is all subjective, which is what I think is the problem along with a glut of not very memorable quotes for stuff recently, and in the past as well. I'm just saying if we want to stomp all over a thing at least some people very clearly like doing, we need it to be for a better reason than "because I disagree" when we do. I know codifying "our opinions" into guidelines/policies is a whole other problem people bitch about too, but this is the part where people need to be around for when decisions are being made, or in most cases, when nothing is decided and we forget about it. - Archduk 3 16:31, October 16, 2020 (UTC)

Yeah... the big problem is that if we *don't* have a rule, policy, guideline, etc. for something then someone is sure to do something and then say "Well, there's no rule against that" or "Show me in the policies where it says I can't/should't do that", but if we make a rule for everything, we're told we're too bureaucratic, try to control stuff, etc. and people either won't/don't read everything and/or things get so convoluted/arcane/complex/voluminous for any reasonable person to read or understand - except for the rules lawyers, which brings us back around to the first point. Yeesh. -- Renegade54 (talk) 18:17, October 16, 2020 (UTC)

I don't think we necessarily need a vetting process, but maybe don't have just one person contribute to them entirely, and be a bit firmer about the need to not having to establish context, especially with the newly released content. Some quotes, or I should say exchanges, are understandable memorable and yeah, they can work, but when you need to count lines and count conversation participants to figure out who says what, then it gets to be a bit tedious to follow. --Alan (talk) 18:53, October 16, 2020 (UTC)

Memorable quotes really are the Kobayashi Maru of the guidelines, because the only way to win is to change what constitutes a win.

Now, if it was up to me, we would scrap the memorable part outright and the memorable quotes sections entirely. The way I see it, "memorable" is unencyclopedic, since it's almost entirely subjective. Now having a guideline on how to handle using quotes in general is far better, because we can describe what, where, and why we would want quotes to be used instead of trying to limit their use in what essentially is a free-for-all dumping ground for them. The Kirk and Picard articles at least try to use their quotes for a constructive purpose instead of just lumping them all together. I'm not suggesting I like those sections, but an attempt was made to at least make them more encyclopedic. The way I see it, the Dukat page is pretty much the ideal for quote use. Either way, if we're using a quote somewhere it really should be to demonstrate character, summarize a section, or otherwise support the text in a meaningful and entertaining way, not just because it was cool/funny/snarky/memorable. That said, I will fight tooth and nail to keep "Shut up, kid" on Wesley's page, so I'm clearly an invested party in this game. - Archduk 3 19:39, October 16, 2020 (UTC)