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Bonus scene Edit

So, what should we make of the "secret scene" which was shown at WonderCon, and released online at the same time [1]:

  • Is it a deleted scene, and should we be treating the material within as we do with other deleted content?
  • Is it some sort of interstitial, like the Doctor Who episode prequels, and does it therefore have in-universe relevance?

The fact that the new character present in the scene will be appearing next season may be relevant, but then again, it is entirely possible that they will be reintroduced or the information presented here provided in a different way. -- Michael Warren | Talk 13:45, March 25, 2018 (UTC)

Damn good question, and an urgent one too as I'm already seeing people adding info from it. Seems to be branded as a "bonus scene" [2] [3] [4] rather then a deleted one so I'm inclined to suspect we're meant to take it as additional canon. Which depending on if this remains a one-off might even require a more involved treatment then a section on an episode page. -- Capricorn (talk) 14:12, March 25, 2018 (UTC)
I'd say that the fact that they say it's a bonus scene rather than a deleted one should make it count as canon. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 15:25, March 25, 2018 (UTC)
I too am wondering if this 'bonus scene' merits its own article. Based on Aaron Harberts' comments it sounds like it was held back deliberately in order to release it later; he said it was originally part of the finale. 31dot (talk) 19:10, March 25, 2018 (UTC)
The alternative could be to add a description of the scene's plot to this plot summary under the header "Bonus scene" or something like that. 31dot (talk) 19:28, March 25, 2018 (UTC)
Until we have more info, it can be covered here and as in-universe content, since that seems to be the current and original intent. We should mark any references and it's placement in the outline as coming from the "bonus scene" though. If it becomes part of the next season's premiere, or some other episode in that season, we can simply move it there, if not, and if it isn't included in any other way with this episode later, like in a blu-ray set or in a "re-release" of the episode, we'll have to revisit the issue. We simply don't have enough info right now to merit a complete overhaul of our "episode" definition. - Archduk3 02:01, March 26, 2018 (UTC)
Sounds like the right approach. Guess (DIS: "Will You Take My Hand?", bonus scene) ought to be the right way to cite this stuff? -- Capricorn (talk) 18:47, March 26, 2018 (UTC)
For now, yes, but make bonus scene a redirect to the section on this page. I'm removing the spoiler warnings currently so they can also be used for these as well once I"m done. - Archduk3 18:58, March 26, 2018 (UTC)

...is a deleted scene Edit

Since this scene is just a deleted scene on the Blu-ray, we should treat it as such and remove the info from the in-universe sections of the relevant articles. - Archduk3 23:18, November 24, 2018 (UTC)

Why should the Blu-rays calling it a deleted scene be more important than CBS calling it a bonus scene on release? JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 15:50, November 25, 2018 (UTC)
"Bonus scene" is a term made up for the occasion, and we were basically guessing what it meant. Deleted scenes are bonus content too. I agree that it should be removed from the in-universe part of the wiki. -- Capricorn (talk) 21:02, November 25, 2018 (UTC)
I strongly oppose this. The scene was billed by Aaron Harberts as a "secret scene" and was released to the public as such. They didn't call it a deleted scene, even though they said that the scene was cut from the episode. [5] 31dot (talk) 22:18, November 25, 2018 (UTC)
I would add that the scene has its own credits at the end, something not done for deleted scenes. 31dot (talk) 22:22, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

...and those credits are not on the blu-ray, nor was the scene added into or after the episode or it's credits. It simply isn't part of a released production, and the content policy is pretty clear on that. This may all be moot later if it is added somewhere else, but it isn't right now, and we only allowed it before till we had more information. The "more information" is it's just a deleted scene that got used as a trailer. - Archduk3 03:10, November 26, 2018 (UTC)

The scene itself is a released production and the credits indicate that. They didn't release it saying "here's a deleted scene we cut but wanted you to see anyway, but it isn't a part of the show". The people who manufacture the blu-rays probably don't have anything to do with producing Discovery(just as the people who write the closed captioning). 31dot (talk) 10:22, November 26, 2018 (UTC)

So we should list that scene as an episode in the season? Give it a number in the production order? That's going a long way to cram it into a mold it doesn't fit in. Credits make it a special feature, not an episode, and as stated before, it doesn't have credits now. Is it even avalible on CBSAA, or Netflix?

Also, everything before the second "but" there is exactly what they said when they released the scene, and that includes admitting it was cut. Just becuase marketing wanted to use a different term when showing it as a trailer doesn't change the fact it's not part of any version of a released episode, and I'm sure production has at least some say in that. Hell, it wouldn't be that hard for them to make a ST around Leland using this, but they haven't. I thought the whole point of that series was to be able to release stuff like this and make it "canon" so they don't have to bother with backstory in their stories. - Archduk3 05:17, November 27, 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Archduk3 on this one. Just because someone decided to show a deleted scene at one convention doesn't mean it should be treated differently to other deleted scenes. --NetSpiker (talk) 06:16, November 27, 2018 (UTC)
They didn't just show it at a convention, they posted it online complete with credits, and it wasn't presented by "someone", but one of the showrunners. I don't have all the answers as to how this should be presented, but this is not a simple deleted scene. We include Star Trek V: The Final Frontier even though Gene Roddenberry himself said it was apocryphal. I guess we could do whatever and wait for January when this could be revisited if need be but I remain opposed to classifying it as a simple deleted scene. 31dot (talk) 12:53, November 27, 2018 (UTC)
Best solution for the time being? Present it as a bonus scene noting that it included credits, and add a note that it was included (without credits) as a "deleted scene" on the BR/DVD release. -- sulfur (talk) 13:00, November 27, 2018 (UTC)

No, the best solution is to follow the content policy always and if this is added in somewhere later then put it there. Not doing that right away was the mistake here, as this is a pretty simple Mosaic/Pathways problem. Nothing is really lost if we just move all the info to the redirect bonus scene, categorizing it correctly as deleted info for now, and then wait to see if the show solves this problem for us. The way I see it, all this stuff is going to need to be moved somewhere else anyway, so it's not like we're even doing that much more "work". - Archduk3 13:28, November 27, 2018 (UTC)

Except that its official release was via the Star Trek twitter account, as a "bonus scene" [6]. It was also aired on Space in Canada during one of their late night (non-Trek) talk shows, complete with credits there. Content-wise? This is a bonus scene. -- sulfur (talk) 14:09, November 27, 2018 (UTC)
I support Sulfur's proposal. 31dot (talk) 15:38, November 27, 2018 (UTC)
Mosaic/Pathways is not on-screen Star Trek. 31dot (talk) 15:39, November 27, 2018 (UTC)

All of those things are also true for trailers, which are very much "non-canon" for the same reasons deleted scenes aren't. Policy is very clear on this, and just because some person who is important right now says this is the exception doesn't make it so. - Archduk3 (on an unsecure connection) 17:12, November 27, 2018 (UTC)

Trailers are released as trailers, not additional "bonus scenes". I don't see anything in the policy that says "bonus scenes do not count". For all intents and purposes this scene was tacked on to the end of the season finale. 31dot (talk) 18:35, November 27, 2018 (UTC)
It's status as a "bonus scene" (which again, is an ad hoc term that unlike "deleted scene" has no universally agreed upon definition) needn't absolutely be taken to say that it must be canon. We can have it both ways if that's where the evidence points: it was this special thing that was specially released, but at the end of the day this special thing was just a deleted scene that was rolled out with extra fanfare. Unique in prominence among deleted scenes, but still not canon.
(By the way, people here are taking the conclusion of the previous discussion as fact without taking into account all its findings: we are now universally calling it a "bonus scene, but that terminology wasn't uniformally used. Harberts introduced it by saying "we are calling it a secret scene.")-- Capricorn (talk) 22:29, November 27, 2018 (UTC)
And the official release called it a "bonus" scene. -- sulfur (talk) 00:06, November 28, 2018 (UTC)

Clearly I'm not the only one here that at least suspects this may never be included in an episode, otherwise why waste all these words for a few months. As far as I can tell, this is the first time there has been disagreement about what an "episode" is, beyond when the sidebars started calling the films episodes, and that clearly isn't the same discussion we are having now.

There isn't anything here that changes the fact this is a deleted scene that was very much not tacked on to the end of the season finale. There is nowhere you can legally watch it combined with the episode. As far as all the formats episodes are released on are concerned, all this is is a deleted scene, if it's included at all (I don't know if CBSAA has deleted scenes). Social media is not a format episodes are released on, and clearly not everything shown at conventions should be "canon". If anyone has a better test than the format one, which is pretty much the one that has been in use here from the start of the project whether you knew it or not, please present it now. There's a whole slew of things that aren't "canon" here becuase they weren't released on the "right" format or in the "right" setting. If you have some change for the content policy that is going to make this an episode, then flat out say you want it to be counted as one, including all that means, and present what wording is going to allow it and nothing else without just using the the only name we have for it beyond the secret one. If you can't do that, what do you really want? - Archduk3 07:01, November 28, 2018 (UTC)

I suggest we wait til January to see how we should deal with this. Have you guys considered what might happen if the scene is actually included in the first episode of S2, for instance? Just saying. --Defiant (talk) 08:07, November 28, 2018 (UTC)
No objection to waiting until January to see what, if anything, happens. The internet was not a format episodes or scenes were released on- until it was- so the fact that they released this on social media means little. The scene was also released internationally on Netflix(who airs Discovery) and in Canada(again, by the same outfit that airs Discovery) This is a new era for Star Trek and they have been clear they are going to try different things. This was indeed figuratively, if not literally, tacked on to the finale. It was produced as part of the finale. There is no need to twist policies or interpret rules to fit this situation. 31dot (talk) 12:09, November 28, 2018 (UTC)

I absolutely object to waiting, again, when we have enough imfomation to make a call right now. We already waited for more information; just because some people didn't like what we got we all have to now wait again? What happens if this isn't in the first episode? Are we suppose to then wait for the next episode? The end of the season? The season after that? The complete series release? The 25th anniversary release? The "they might change there minds" or "it could happen" argument can go on forever. At what point will the argument for just allowing this become "it's already there, why change it now?"

It's not like it's all that hard to change anyway. It's only a handful of pages where some info would need to be moved into the background. Only Leland would need to be redirected for however long it takes for the character to be "introduced". It can be done in minutes, and changed back just as easily. This discussion has taken more time than the work would.

As I see it, the only cost to puting this info in the background where it belongs is admiting to the thing that everyone already has, that the scene was deleted from this episode and not literally put back in. Since that is the case though, the summary and related info shouldn't be here anyway, but moved to bonus scene. Regardless of how you feel about if the info in the scene should be "canon" or not, the episode summary here shouldn't contain information that isn't in a release of this episode. - Archduk3 07:28, November 29, 2018 (UTC)

It was produced as part of the finale, and expands on the plot in the finale, so it made sense to put in in the article about the finale. If you think it should be in a separate article(leaving aside the canon issue) or different article(maybe DIS Season 1?), I would be open to discussing that. 31dot (talk) 10:54, November 29, 2018 (UTC)

It is much easier to show then to tell. Much like the rest of the problem here, it may make sense from a certain point of view to include it where it was removed from, but it was very much removed from it. - Archduk3 03:50, December 1, 2018 (UTC)

I don't object to the move, but there was no consensus yet on the canon issue and at least some agreement to wait until the next season starts to decide. 31dot (talk) 11:24, December 1, 2018 (UTC)

There is no agreement to wait; only you supported it and Defiant didn't declared which "side" he is on, if you want to break it down like that. Going just by the numbers, there is an "agreement" that this content should be removed from "canon", with 3 for, 2 against, and 2 commenting without a clear preference. Consensus isn't just numbers though, but this wouldn't be the first time numbers were used like that, and policy and precedent are also on my "side" here. There are still some mitigating factors and unanswered questions about this, so it's not like your "side" doesn't still have a point, it's just that based on the information presented here all we can really conclude is the studio wants this information available, which can be said for the contents of any number of "non-canon" things they release, and they still don't care enough or no one person has enough sway to force some coordination between divisions of the company.

All the information in this will likely make it into "canon" one way or the other eventually, but I would say the odds of this scene being included dropped significantly with the physical format releases. If the world ended today and no new content was ever released or created, I don't think there is much of an argument for including this. - Archduk3 12:00, December 1, 2018 (UTC)

Since it's been over a week and there is nothing new, I'm going with the policy and numbers. If/when this info is put into an episode, it can be added back to the in-universe content. Since there are less than 10 pages effected by this and all of them still link here, I imagine that will be exceedingly easy. - Archduk3 (on an unsecure connection) 19:12, December 11, 2018 (UTC)

Given this: [7], it may have more to do with this series than DSC. Maybe they'll use the footage in a flashback scene in an episode.--LauraCC (talk) 18:02, January 14, 2019 (UTC)
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