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Featured Article Nomination (29th July, 2008)

The Jean-Luc Picard article is very detailed, including lots of references, images and a timeline of events, as well as relevant quotes and detailed background information. I would like to nominate it for FA status. TrekFan 12:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Oppose: My main objection to this being a featured article is the quote which has come and gone several times from the top of the article; in fact, that single quote has sparked at least three edit wars. This is not the marking of a featured article if agreement cannot even come to what quote we should have up there. Not to mention there is frequent editing on this article and it is not all that stable with reverts, pasting, and removed-readded material appearing and disappearing quite frequently. I do like the article, but alas I must object for now. -FC 03:30, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Quote issue resolved, so I recant my oppose vote but dont want to support it just yet due to the instability of the article, large number of edits, and anon ip additions added, deleted, and re-added over the past few months. -FC 13:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Support: This is a fantastic article, very well detailed. As for the quote, a suggestion I would make is perhaps Admiral J.P. Hanson's line from TNG: "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II", which went: "I've never known anyone with more drive, determination or more courage than Jean-Luc Picard." Dave 07:01, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Comment - A fitting quote. I have added it to the page. TrekFan 15:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose for now. I too like the article. I think it is extremely detailed and has virtually everything we know about Picard in it. I do have a few concerns, some minor:
    1. One is the section in appendices "References in Other Trek Series". The whole section is in-universe, so it needs an in-universe title.
    2. I don't like the idea of the "Miscellaneous Information" section. This can surely be incorporated elsewhere into the article.
    3. I can't help but feel the relationships section, while nicely detailed for each person, is rather selective. Shouldn't Troi and Wesley get a short section each?
    4. His actions in the Klingon arc are noted in the intro paragraph, but I feel they should have their own section. Career-wise, they're certainly as significant as his encounters with the Borg and Q.– Cleanse 01:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment - I have changed the title (point #1) to "References by other people". I will look at incorporating point #2 into the article itself. - TrekFan 02:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Support: While I do believe some of the points made here are valid, I also believe that this article is well written, and more then qualifies for FA as is. Melak talk 18:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Support: Very good article.--Aamin Marritza 13:03, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
My first two concerns have been met, and the second two are more icing on the cake so I recant my oppose vote.– Cleanse 07:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment: Aesthetically speaking, I'm not keen on how the italicized background comments are pushed into the same space as regular text by images placed on the left. Such information should be indented and offset from the main content, but with the left placed images the formatting that would otherwise differentiate the two pov's are crushed together, and italics alone are not enough to offset the pov change (seeing as italics also denote an alternate timeline in our style of formatting). I'd rather see that somehow resolved...images moved to the right to restore the formatting, or the indented italics moved away from the left images, before this is featured. --Alan 07:44, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
That's a good point. I think those left images should be moved to the right.--Aamin Marritza 12:21, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Done.– Cleanse 12:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment: Come on, guys! We only need two more votes! TrekFan 17:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Conditional support - Having thoroughly examined the article, it is certainly one of the better candidates we've had, and there are just a few things I'd like to see changed. The Guinan section should include the very important events of TNG: "Time's Arrow, Part II"; the placement of the File:Jean-Luc Picard, 2370.jpg in the Q section seems odd, the Worf section seems short, and I'm weary about the "alternate picard"'s quotes being in the "real picard's" quotes section. Other than these minor things - absolutly fantastic article!!! - AJ Halliwell 18:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
I have moved the Picard image further up so it is in the section about his time on the Enterprise. I have also added another Q image to the Q section in its place and removed the AR quotes from the quotes section. TrekFan 11:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Support: It's nice, detailed, has lots of good pictures. ~Anya Prynn | Talk 13:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Support: Now that it looks like all issues have been resolved, I would like to express my support for this article to be featured, too. --36ophiuchi 17:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Voting concluded. Five votes for FA status. TrekFan 19:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Removed speculation

I've removed the following three notes:

"The character of Jean-Luc Picard was named after Dr. Jean-Felix Piccard, a Swiss scientist, high-altitude balloonist, and member of a family of noted explorers. While there is no official source of the name Picard, the character makes occasional allusions to his 'famous ancestors' – presumably Jean, Auguste, Jacques and Bertrand Piccard. Jean-Felix Piccard was the uncle of Jacques Piccard, who explored the Marianas Trench in 1960. Jacques Piccard's Basthyscaphe (deep sea submarine) was named Trieste, the potential namesake of the USS Trieste.

"A 'Picard' is also a 16th- and 17th-century term for someone of an enquiring mindset (derived from the birthplace of John Calvin of Picardy). With his interest in the development of humanism, it is likely Gene Roddenberry knew this. Certainly it is a fitting description of Jean-Luc's character as well as his name.

"Further, there was a 17th-century Catholic priest and astronomer named Jean Picard, who was the first to measure the Earth's size to a high degree of accuracy, and who kept close contacts with Isaac Newton and Tycho Brahe, who may have also contributed to the character's naming."

All three notes are entirely speculative regarding their link to Jean-Luc Picard (which is, let's face it, the reason they're on this page) with the only exception being "There is no official source of the name Picard." --Defiant (talk) 07:33, September 6, 2016 (UTC)

Rank Trivia

Under the Trivia section, the following appears regarding Picard's onscreen rank: "Other than in alternate realities, Jean-Luc Picard has always appeared as a captain, throughout the entire run of TNG and the subsequent movies. Data and Dr. Crusher are the only other characters to remain at the ranks they started with."

Picard did not continuously retain his rank throughout the series & movies, since he explicitly resigned his commission during the events of Insurrection. While both his rank and position would appear to have been restored by the time of Nemesis, this still constitutes a temporary loss of rank during his career. Some mention of this should either be added to this piece of trivia, or else it should probably be removed. On a related note, Data, Troi, Crusher, and Worf might also have resigned during the same events, though the evidence is slightly less conclusive in their cases. --ThetaSigma47 (talk) 08:40, January 15, 2019 (UTC)

In order to resign, the person resigning must give their resignation to someone higher up who then accepts it. We don't know that this happened and it seems likely that it didn't("I'm resigning to stop Starfleet's removal of these people"). 31dot (talk) 14:24, January 15, 2019 (UTC)

That's a very good point; we do know that a formal resignation in Starfleet requires the approval of a superior officer. Since there is no evidence of Picard receiving such approval in this story (indeed his immediate superior, Admiral Dougherty, made it clear that he expected Picard to remain in command of the Enterprise and carry out his orders), I agree that it makes sense that Picard didn't truly resign (the same reasoning can apply to the other crew-members who joined his insurrection).

However, he (and the others) did go AWOL, and explicitly defied their superior's orders. Does it then follow that they were no longer Starfleet officers for the duration of their activities on the Bak'u planet, since both their intent and actions fell outside of Starfleet mandate? Would Admiral Dougherty's actions during the same events constitute a nullification of his position and authority, as (presumably) Starfleet were later informed of his behavior? Can we clarify this example by drawinng any parallels to similar circumstances, either in Trek or the real world (i.e. Kirk & co. going rogue in The Search for Spock)? Thank you for considering.--ThetaSigma47 (talk) 14:28, January 16, 2019 (UTC)

If they weren't Starfleet officers at the time, how could they be AWOL? You don't stop being an office just because you decide to mount an insurrection. The former Starfleet Maquis had to either resign or have their defection reported before they weren't in Starfleet anymore, and I don't see how stopping the article to have this discussion is a good idea for most readers. Anyone who is confused should see this before saying anything here. That said, I'm going to adjust the wording a bit for other reasons. - Archduk3 (on an unsecure connection) 20:31, January 16, 2019 (UTC)
Just as a point of order, disobeying an illegal order (and the conspiratorial actions of a rogue admiral that violate constitutional principles are illegal) doesn't mean they ceased to be Starfleet officers. Indeed, obeying such an illegal order would make them complicit in the crime, and therefore it is their duty to disobey such orders. They never lost their rank at any point during Insurrection and any implication they did is outright incorrect. Oknazevad (talk) 13:19, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

Removed “most popular”

I’ve removed this dubious (or at least, poorly phrased) bit:

Picard was most popular for straightening his uniform when standing up (the "Picard Maneuver", different from the tactical maneuver he first performed with the Stargazer), saying "Engage" after plotting a course, and "Make it so" when agreeing with someone's suggested orders.

Catchphrases and habitual motions are not what makes a character popular, in my opinion. A character becomes popular for being well-written and well-performed; an audience first gains affection for a character, and then develops fondness for the character’s habits and sayings.

Now, it’s possible that what was meant was that these catchphrases and habits became popular with the audience, but that’s not what the wording above actually says. —Josiah Rowe (talk) 04:17, September 27, 2019 (UTC)

Personal project

I wanted to know if it would be fine if I made this article my own little project. I would love to help by improving this article with all relevant info, images, etc. Mseay222 (talk) 00:06, February 8, 2020 (UTC)

I have been sick and not able to edit, I said I would take up editing on this article but can not, glad someone put the info from the last two episodes of season one of Picard on there. Mseay222 (talk) 23:03, March 28, 2020 (UTC)

Broken Pieces

Why was the information I added from the episode Broken Pieces removed? Mseay222 (talk) 18:50, March 15, 2020 (UTC)

I made some changes. Hopefully, it is OK now. Pedronog (talk) 19:21, March 15, 2020 (UTC)
Okay cool, I was a little confused because the info wasn't there for a bit. No worries. Mseay222 (talk) 19:26, March 15, 2020 (UTC)

Human Picard and Android Picard

Is it really necessary to split the article into two parts (Golem),After all, he is still Jean Luc Picard, with the same mind and same looking body, still mortal, and with no "special powers", only difference is that body is artificial.A difference which makes no difference is no difference.93.136.27.59 09:59, March 26, 2020 (UTC)

Whether an android containing all the memories, experiences and personality of a human is the same person as the original human is a metaphysical question with no definite answer. We do have separate pages for Roger Korby and Roger Korby (android) as well as Juliana Soong and Juliana Tainer. However, there is currently a suggestion to merge the Juliana articles. --NetSpiker (talk) 11:28, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
Juliana Tainer only appeared in one episode though, and technically Juliana Soong never appeared onscreen. The Picard golem will most likely appear in all future seasons of Star Trek: Picard, therefore I think they should remain 2 separate articles. Madnana42 (talk) 11:49, March 26, 2020 (UTC)Madnana42
I think we only need one article here. (Juliana too) It's very clear it's meant to be the same person. 31dot (talk) 13:55, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
Is a copy the same as the original?--Memphis77 (talk) 15:03, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
The way the transporters work in Star Trek, there would have to be couple of thousand pages for each character, since each time a person is transported, a copy (a "quantum exact" one, but still a copy) is created at the destination, with the original destroyed.93.136.79.216 15:42, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
Kurtzman on The Ready Room said they intend it to be the same person. 31dot (talk) 15:05, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
Well, that could be mentioned in the background section of either page, leaving the reader to judge whether or not they are the same or different.--Memphis77 (talk) 15:14, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
I agree that they should be separate pages. It's a copy of the original mind. It's said in the episode, as well as the fact that the original had died, even said by Data's consciousness, who was also a copy. It's meant to be the same mind in the sense that it's an exact copy of the first, but they mention that the first mind's brain functions ceased, which means he died. This is a completely different mind, built, not born and even if he continues on acting like Picard, he still isn't the same being, much in the same way as when William T. Riker and Thomas Riker aren't the same man. The difference being that Picard has died, so we don't get to see a diverging path, but even so, he has died. The way previous articles have been made into separated entities also is cause for two different pages. It'd be strange to continue the story on the original page as if it's the same man. It'd be different if it was a brain transplant, but this was a copy of his brain. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 16:08, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
According to your arguments, Harry Kim should also have two separate pages, one prior to, and other following the events of Deadlock.93.136.79.216 16:20, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
If the Spock post-Search for Spock is kept as the same person as the Spock up to Wrath of Khan, despite his consciousness having been transferred to a new body, I see no reason to have two pages for Picard. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 16:23, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
Spock's body reanimated in that film with the same mind, just transferred. Same with Harry Kim. Organic copy, not created. This is an artificial mind and body created by a scientist. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 16:25, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
Spock's body wasn't reanimated, it was recreated via the effects of Genesis device.Harry Kim was duplicated via "spatial scission".Both died, and were brought back to life by a plot device, but still there is no need to have separate articles.Just like there is no need for separate article about Picard.93.136.79.216 16:33, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
There was a lot of time in between Spock's death and his being brought back, as well. This case occurred quickly. There is also readers to consider; readers are naturally going to come to this page first for information, not "Jean-Luc Picard (golem)". 31dot (talk) 16:26, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
It'd be the same as combining the pages of William T. Riker and Thomas Riker. Data and B-4. It just feels like different beings merit different pages. Different stories. The only reason this Picard is like the other one is because he was manufactured to be so. New body, new heart, new brain. It's not really the same man at all. Shinzon is Picard, as well, who went through his own story. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 16:28, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
Shinzon was a clone who never shared Picard's memories and consciousness. The reason the two Rikers need two pages is that they diverged and existed simultaneously, unlike Picard, where the new body is a continuation of the old one. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 16:31, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
Time will tell how this plays out in the story, I suppose. For all we know, new dramatic stories will include this Picard acting totally differently to the former and differing in many ways. Malfunctioning, even. It's definitely an issue with different sides of argument, so it's interesting to see. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 16:34, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
Data and B-4 are not the same individual. Thomas was not transferred from Will. What you or I think Picard is shouldn't matter, the production intends for it to be the exact same individual. We can have a metaphysical debate elsewhere. 31dot (talk) 16:35, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
I meant after Data's memories were copied into B-4. Thomas was exactly who Will was. Same brain and heart. This one is artificial. I guess we'll see in time if the story is driven in a way where this Picard is the same, or acts completely different. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 16:37, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
I would say wait and see how season 2 of Picard works out. It has happened that what production intended doesn't always translate to the screen, things change for the needs of the story.--Memphis77 (talk) 16:39, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
I will say, as just a note on this, it seems that this Picard waking up in that simulation with Data was the beginning of his life. This is definitely a character that will have fans in debate for some time. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 16:41, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
One article is enough. We do not have two articles for Spock and we do not need two articles for Picard. --Argus Wryn (talk) 19:12, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
We don't need two pages, that's silly, it's the same man, with the same soul, just in a different body.--Noah Tall (talk) 22:32, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
The episode does raise a point which can be used for arguing in favor of two pages. Under Federation law, the new PIcard is seen as a synthetic lifeform. If the ban had not been lifted, the new Picard would not have the freedom of travel within the Federation and would be confined to Coppelius.--Memphis77 (talk) 00:04, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
For now we don't know if anyone other than those present on Coppelius even knows that he's a synth now or if it's a secret. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 00:07, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
Obviously separate article until season 2 concludes. If they somehow write a season 2 that effectively ignores, as far as character progression and writing, the fact that Picard died and was replicated and is now a machine copy with an inorganic brain, and instead just act like Picard is Picard and nothing is different it will be so pointless and stupid it will make sense to merge into one article ... we will also want to forget about the golem as much as possible so we'll merge them and turn it into a footnote before getting plastered. 206.144.209.33 00:12, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

Indent reset

They are two seperate entities, so they need two seperate articles.

Just as with:

Harry Kim should really also be split into Harry Kim and Harry Kim (spatial scission duplicate)

Kathryn Janeway (biomimetic copy) should also exist, as well as ones for the duplicate Voyager and it's crew.

A good case is also be made for a new article for Spock (katra reintegrated)

There would be no discussion of whether two articles were required here, if the copy of Picard's memories was made, lets say, 1 month before his death and Jean-Luc Picard (golem) was walking and talking alongside Jean-Luc Picard, as opposed to mere moments before his death when Jean-Luc Picard was largely unconscious for the rest of his life, with Jean-Luc Picard (golem) awakening into the real world after the death of Jean-Luc Picard.

This is a new person. A new article is therefore required (Segway (talk) 00:23, March 27, 2020 (UTC))

In this episode is Data that dies, not Picard, otherwise what's the point for Data to ask Picard to end his life? That's because Data is still somewhat alive and want to be a mortal being like humans are. So, IMHO, Picard consciousness is unique and that represent him as an individual, an unique person, so being his consciousness (many of you can define this as "soul" or whatever) still recoverable and transferable to a golem, that golem is just a vessel of his consciousness (only consciousness define us as unique being), but in fact that "Picard golem" it's the same unique person with a new body, he's Jean Luc Picard not a copy or a different being. --79.43.112.149 01:04, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
They made it clear several times in both parts of the episode that it was a transfer of consciousness, not a duplication. Having split articles does not make sense. For Juliana Soong/Tainer it makes sense because it was explicitly stated that her memories were copied. If we have a separate page for Picard we also need them for Spock and Harry Kim. This is not the first example of a transfer of consciousness/self in the series by far. Treating this any differently than the others just reeks of trying to make this series into somehow less than full canon Star Trek. 75.97.53.134 02:12, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
I would think the most analogous situation to this would be Culber. He died, and then came back in a new body, and he only has one page. Icecreamdif (talk) 02:16, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
In the episode, Picard asks Data if he is dead, to which he got an affirmative answer. So, Picard did die. I am going to include a quote from a TNG episode here: This case has dealt with metaphysics, with questions best left to saints and philosophers. I'm neither competent nor qualified to answer those.--Memphis77 (talk) 02:29, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
Culber and Spock also died. Many times characters have been dead and come back. Data explicitly tells Picard "before your brain function ceased [they] scanned, mapped, and transferred a complete neural image of your brain substrates". That's his soul, katra, whatever being transferred to a new body. 75.97.53.134 02:39, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
I have said my piece.--Memphis77 (talk) 02:55, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
The entire point of the season was in understanding that whether we were born or made isn't what makes us Human, it's who we are inside, and having Picard be transferred into a synthetic body is the perfect way to tie that up in the end. This is, most definitely, intended to be the same man as he ever was, just with a shiny new body. The two articles should be merged into one. Captain J (talk) 03:24, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
The fact that they were able to change things about his mind, such as the brain abnormality, implies that it's a new brain altogether and a copy of the real Picard's brain. They had the ability to change who he was and give him abilities, but chose to make him like the real Picard. If this were the exact same man, why not just use his previous body and previous brain? Why not put this new brain in the real Picard's body? It's a new brain. That's the difference between this character and others, who have died. This was a man who was created by scientists, rather than just transplanted. From what I can tell. It sounds like we need a definitive answer to know where to proceed from here. I don't believe that they just transferred his mind from his past brain to a new brain. It rather sounds like a copy than that and I think that him waking up with Data implies when the mind turned on. This new brain lives, the other brain died after the memories and mind were copied, which implies that it was alive briefly after it was scanned, which means that it lived briefly as they were creating a new Picard. At least from my understanding. That's what makes this a topic of such debate and that's why I hope we get a definitive answer to settle this, no matter what side of the debate you're on. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 03:31, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
Spock was still alive for a while after he put his katra into McCoy, but we still consider Spock to be the same person, even though his mind is basically a copy. Picard’s original body and brain are dead, but those aren’t the things that make him who he is. His katra or pagh or whatever was transferred into a new synthetic brain and body, just like Culber’s soul was transferred into a new copy of his body. Icecreamdif (talk) 03:37, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
That's why there's been an argument made above for a new page for Spock, as well. Definitely interesting to think about. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 03:42, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
I think the best thing to do is wait until Season 2 arrives to see if the other characters treat the android as the real Picard. The Roger Korby android was treated as a different person (KIRK: Doctor Korby was never here). So was the Juliana android (SOONG: The real Juliana probably would have left too, if she'd lived).
The post-resurrection Spock was treated as the original Spock, so he doesn't need a separate article. The Harry Kim from the other Voyager was also treated as the original. Labeling one Harry Kim the original and another the duplicate is also wrong because we don't really know which one is the duplicate. --NetSpiker (talk) 05:22, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
I agree with NetSpiker that the determining factor should be how the character is treated within the fiction. Treating, for example, the two Harry Kims as two characters seems to me to be excessively literal.
I'll also point out that above when Roger says "they were able to change things about his mind", he is using "brain" and "mind" interchangeably. I don't think that the episode (or Star Trek in general) supports that. Although there is an argument that consciousness is a material phenomenon arising from the brain, Star Trek has generally followed a sort of Cartesian dualism which presents the mind as an independent epiphenomenon capable of existence independent of the brain (as seen in multiple episodes in which consciousnesses are transferred from one person to another, or from a person to a machine or a computer program, etc.).
It is clear that although Picard now has a synthetic (created) body and brain, the "mind" residing in that new body is meant to be the same as the one in his (now-deceased) human body. Whether that is sufficient for us to say that it is the same person is another question; but I don't think we can hang that decision on whether his mind was "copied" or "transferred" from his original body. That seems to me to be a distinction without a difference. —Josiah Rowe (talk) 05:25, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
Merge them. The precedent is fully there. This is no different than Spock, and no one would ever consider them separate in any practical fashion, philosophical musings notwithstanding. The other claims of similarities to other article pairs are either weak (Will and Tom Riker co-existed) or were never intended to be the same character (the succession of Weyouns or Khaless and his clone). The producers have plainly said it's the same character. There should be one article, and the separate article was hastily and mistakenly started. In other words, had the discussion been started first, there wouldn't be consensus to create a separate article. And indeed, the idea of creating a separate article before seeing how it plays out (especially when the characters already are acting as though he's the same person, albeit briefly) means the split was presumptive original research. Oknazevad (talk) 05:31, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
I’m not sure what the point of waiting for season 2 would be. All of the characters, including Picard himself, are already treating him like he’s the same person. If that changes in season 2, maybe then we can consider splitting the articles again, but for now I would say we should merge them. Icecreamdif (talk) 06:16, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
There's also an article for Locutus of Borg, even though that was still Picard himself, but there's no separate article for Seven of Nine during her time with the Borg. There's various different ways that a situation such as this has been dealt with before, which has clearly made this a discussion that has various support on both sides of it. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 06:20, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
To me, this comes down to what are these articles *for*? Is it for semantic philosophical debates about what constitutes an individual person or is it a place for people to succinctly and efficiently get information on shows, characters and events? When all is said and done, no one looking for a summation of the life and times of Jean-Luc Picard is served by splitting his show existence in two. By all means, speak to these things in detail in the article, but this seems to be just creating a hurdle for easy access to information for no reason. --Cmissonak (talk) 07:04, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
Very good point. It doesn't serve our readers to make them run around to multiple articles because of a philosophical pedantry for what the show runner has already stated plainly is the same character, even if the circumstances of his continued existence are unusual. Oknazevad (talk) 07:55, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
I haven't contributed in a long time, but I must speak up and say anyone who says they are different people has woefully missed the whole point of the series - you may as well as create separate entries for every character whose body has been broken up in a transporter if you're going to be as materialistic as the Zhat Vash. (Just my two cents as someone who feels a fan site should reflect the show it loves, not break it to prove they're more rational than Data.) --Alientraveller (talk) 11:04, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
Regarding the transporter argument, the idea has always been that a person is turned into a "matter stream", and that same matter is beamed to the destination and reassembled, so the person at the destination is definitely the same person who went into the transporter. There have even been situations where characters remained conscious during transport. --NetSpiker (talk) 11:30, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
Exactly. The "transported people are actually copies" idea is something I first heard from Lawrence M. Krauss, who was explaining the theories of molecular teleportation according to an understanding of real world physics, and flat out said, that's not how it's supposed to work in Star Trek. Regardless of real-life theories, transporters in the Trek universe, break someone down, transport them, and reassemble them as they were, not just "copy, paste, delete original." Likewise, the intent of "consciousness transfer" is that it is the same person, regardless of what body they're in. See also "Return to Tomorrow." --TimPendragon (talk) 14:20, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
The other article needs to be merged: this is just plain silly. One article is enough - we absolutely do not need two articles. --Argus Wryn (talk) 14:49, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
Strongly agree with those saying it should be one article. Between the writers' comments that they're intended to be the same character, the fact that there's complete continuity of consciousness between the two, and the fact that Soong and Jurati specifically discussed downloading a human mind into an android body, not copying it, it seems pretty explicit to me that this is the same entity, with their life artificially prolonged using technology. Transferring him into a robot body was a medical procedure that saved him from death, we may as well have two articles covering Picard with his natural heart and Picard with his artificial heart. The "Search for Spock" argument holds water: just because Picard's memories and consciousness were stored in a computer rather than an unwitting Bones, and the new body they were transferred into was made intentionally in a lab instead of accidentally by a Genesis Device doesn't mean the situation is different. For the sake of consistency, we should either have one page for Jean-Luc Picard which states that he was given an android body as a treatment for a terminal medical condition or we should split the Spock article into "Spock" about the character's life up to his death in Wrath of Khan and "Spock (clone)" for his life starting in Search For Spock. We can have metaphysical arguments about the nature of the soul in real life until the cows come home but the fact of the matter is, according to what's established in-universe (that Picard's memories and consciousness are not a simulation, which is stated outright, and have been transferred from his organic body and into a synthetic one) and directly stated by the writers (that they are the same character with no caveats), there should only be one page. This isn't an encyclopedia on Trekkies' philosophical opinions, it's an encyclopedia for things that have happened on "Star Trek," and what happened on Star Trek, explicitly and without room for debate, is that Picard The Human xB and Picard The Android are the same Picard. --Spacebreather (talk) 19:14, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
I agree. HotHasperat (Talk) 19:36, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
Maybe we should have a poll/vote. --Tuskin38 (talk) 18:57, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
However this turns out, I meant well. A big part of my decision in making a separate page was the impression that the mind inside the golem was a copy and that the original Picard had passed away, as well as the fact that we have a page for Locutus of Borg. Coupled with the fact that they said (within the episode) that everything about him was new. I didn't expect this to become such a topic of debate. When it started, I figured it'd be a quick resolution one way, or the other. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 19:48, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
I understand your intent! And I get where you're coming from. I just think that with what's stated in the show, which is that his mind is not a simulation, that it was downloaded from his organic body to his synthetic one, it doesn't make sense to keep it split. Since there's direct continuity between the "two" Picards, we could accomplish the same goal with a line explaining that his organic body died but his mind was put in an android body, and then continuing the same article from there. It may be worth putting a line in the background section explaining how there's debate amongst fans over whether the Android Picard is truly the same entity as the original Picard and that the writers have stated this was their intent, just to cover all our bases! But I do think, especially with a lot of people coming to the Jean-Luc Picard page for information on the character, an immediate merge is a good idea, so that they don't have to go to a second page to know everything that happened to Picard --Spacebreather (talk) 20:11, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
Yeah. Whatever is best for Memory Alpha is what I want. Thank you for understanding. I made the article with the assumption that it was going to be made anyway and that I was saving someone else the time and work of doing it. So, if it's decided to merge, I won't argue against it. I just wanted to share my point of view here. I won't argue against what is decided in the end. Whatever works best works for me. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 20:15, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
Yikes. Thanks PIC writers :) Picard's situation shares plenty with both sides on this. With Juliana, clearly an android with copied/restored memories. With Spock and Kim, a (fairly) instant "replacement" where the differences in memories/experiences are minor enough to consider him the same person. On the one hand, this is how we handle androids. On the other, why should an android/synth be treated any differently than an organic? Insert your own obvious plot joke here.
I understand that most casual readers that don't read up on MA policy or precedent will expect this to be treated like Spock especially with S2 incoming. If we merge Picard we'll probably have to merge Julinana as well. If we keep the articles separate we'll get a lot of discussion on splitting up Spock, Kim, etc.
I'm for separate articles as this is how we've handled android articles before, with the understanding that policy is decided by the community. -- Compvox (talk) 20:35, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

Indent reset

The split between Juliana Tainer and Juliana Soong happened literally last month, and without the following the guidelines. It is in no way a precedent that should be considered in this discussion. - Archduk3 20:56, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

I think it would make sense to merge Juliana’s pages too. Like Picard, she was just the same person who’s mind was put into a new body. She doesn’t even know that she is in a new body. Icecreamdif (talk) 21:00, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
Apologies Arkduk, I didn't realize the split was that recent. -- Compvox (talk) 21:05, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

It's completely understandable that would get lost in all the new info. MA doesn't have a set way of dealing with these except on a case by case basis. The rationale for decisions on having separate articles or not generally has been about content and context though. In that, are the character's "different" and is there enough content to make it worth it? The Silver Blood and hologram duplicates were considered to be more or less the same as their "real" counterparts, in that the character the actor was portraying wasn't really different even if they were different in the story. IE: Janeway acts like the "real" Janeway even if she isn't. Clones generally don't come with memories, but we do have Spock Two out there. Since Spock and Spock Two coexisted and made different choices, they aren't the same, to say nothing of the height difference. The Silver Blood, holograms, clones, transporter duplicates, and even the many Spocks are apples to oranges if we consider the exact circumstances of the story though.

"What Are Little Girls Made Of?" and "Inheritance" are really the only apples to apples examples we have to this hat I know of, and the "message" of those episodes are more or less the opposite of each other. PIC agrees with TNG that what makes us Human isn't the body, while TOS says something of value is lost with the change. Now, those are the surface arguments, in that TOS was really dealing with unnatural artificial enhancement while TNG and PIC are using artificial means to "fix" a problem without "unnaturally" extending their lives beyond that.

That said, I think the deciding factor should be are these suppose to be different characters? With Roger Korby, the answer was a "Yes?" at least, while with Juliana and Picard, at least so far, the answer is emphatically "No". There was no harm done in making a call and creating a new page, but these pages should be merged. - Archduk3 21:56, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, I'm also in favor of merging Juliana's page, but I suppose that's a matter for Juliana's talk page. I do think that a pretty simple compromise could solve this for future instances and keep everybody happy: Why don't we keep the "Jean-Luc Picard's Golem" page but treat it more like a page for a vessel than a character, with details about its construction, specifications, etc, while still putting the biographical events of the character himself in the "Jean-Luc Picard" page? I know it seems silly to have one article for a character and another for that character's body, but in this particular instance, the character's body has its own history unrelated to the character himself. This way, we accomplish the continuity and accessibility of information that us "there should be one article for one character" people want while also covering the "there is information specific to the golem that's got nothing to do with Picard" ground that's worrying the people who want the articles split. We can have the philosophical "is it the same Picard?" ship of theseus conversation on discussion forums, but this is more a space where the main goal should be conveying the information in an accessible way, and having a separate article for "Jean-Luc Picard after season 1 episode 10 of the spin-off series Picard" is decidedly not that, when for all intents (specifically, the author's explicitly stated intent) and purposes, there is functionally no distinction between Picard before and after that episode --Spacebreather (talk) 22:03, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
At this point, it seems that there might be more here that support having just the one article. If in Season 2, he is treated differently, or called out for not being the same man, then it could always be put back to two. Whatever the consensus is, it can always be changed later. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 22:09, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
I've honestly gotta say I respect your maturity and keeping your cool here, you see that so rarely in internet disagreements! It does seem as though there's a consensus here now, especially since even you, the person who split it, is cool with turning it into one page, and as you said, we can always put it back to two articles if it turns out we need to! Does someone who's a little better at this system want to do the merge? I'm really not that skilled with the codes and whatnot or I'd do it myself --Spacebreather (talk) 22:13, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
Oh, absolutely. It'd be wrong for me to be upset about this. I want what is best for Memory Alpha and I never intend to do things wrongly here, or upset anyone. I just figured it'd be the right move and sometimes, you make an edit that isn't what's best. It happens. Either way, we can say that the Star Trek franchise still has us talking, thinking and debating, even 53 years (going on 54 years) later. To be so provoking of intellectual thought and discussion at this point in its history, that's a wonderful thing. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 22:39, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
I think we all agree with that, and I too echo the appreciation that this has been a good discussion and debate, and not full of vitriol. This is how it's supposed to work. It was a legitimate question that probably would have come up sooner or later. You didn't do anything wrong per se. It's just something that needed to be worked through and sorted. It seems we've accomplished that without it getting out of hand, and that's a relief, and something commendable. --TimPendragon (talk) 23:03, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
I'm just a new guy around here, though I have been a reader from time to time. I really appreciate all of the work that people put into this resource. I think it's great that everyone can have a discussion without it turning into a flame war. I think the articles should be merged, but I also agree that it should be revisited later if Picard 2.0 becomes a distinct being. That is just my opinion, but I will happily defer pushing for that to those that make this place what it is. That is certainly not me. HotHasperat (Talk) 23:22, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
I, too, appreciate that this is a place with good people, fellow Star Trek fans, just trying to help do a good thing for the franchise and an encyclopedia for it. I always enjoy a good discussion and I agree that this was a great discussion with good points on both sides, but that there does seem to be a consensus for a merging. We'll see what happens. I believe that the creators hinted that Picard's death won't be forgotten, so it'll be interesting to see if that comes into play and if it merits revisiting as an article. Thank you all for being understanding and working towards a decision here. An absolutely admirable discussion. Also, to those new here, welcome to Memory Alpha. I hope that you enjoy your time here. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 23:24, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
With all said and done and people having been generally speaking friendly to each other as it should be, will someone who knows what he is doing with regards to using editing functions like this now merge the other article. --Argus Wryn (talk) 23:35, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
I support merging, for the reasons stated by the others above me. The golem Picard has all of the original Picard's memories and is being treated as the same person. Even from his point of view he's the same person.  CaptFredricks talkcontr 01:47, March 28, 2020 (UTC)
This was a plot device to resolve the brain abnormality, nothing more. Not only does Picard have a continuity of consciousness, they went out of their way to say that his neural engrams, his physical features, his lack of augmentations, and his life expectancy are all exactly the same as his natural body, minus the brain abnormality. The writers could have fixed the problem with a miracle cure or Seven's nanoprobes or whatever other technobabble you want. Previously he had an artificial heart, and now he's got a whole artificial body, but the bottom line is, they didn't create a new character. For all intents and purposes, this is Jean-Luc Picard, and there should be only one article. — LCARS 02:38, March 28, 2020 (UTC)
One is a man, one is a machine. That's not a lateral move. It's Roger Korby. Regardless, if he is one article it's a contradiction in terms to define him as both ategory:Human and Category:Android (aka key word: "synthetic" lifeform). --Alan (talk) 03:02, March 28, 2020 (UTC)
I also support a merge, for the reasons mentioned by others. I don't see any issue with this article having both categories either. Categories can reflect statuses that aren't constant (e.g. all the occupation and USS Example personnel categories).--Cleanse ( talk ) 03:40, March 28, 2020 (UTC)
He’s still a man. And, to quote Picard himself, humans “too are machines, just machines of a different type.” So, both before and after the transfer, Picard was both a machine and a man. Icecreamdif (talk) 04:02, March 28, 2020 (UTC)
Regarding Alan's comment... you seem to be defining "man" and "machine" as merely the physical aspects, and that's not what this is really dealing with. The android that thought it was Korby was a copy, with the memories, of the original person. His consciousness or soul or whatever you want to call what makes him a being instead of an organic shell with no personhood, did not make the transition from one form to another. Juliana is a case that could be taken either way, depending on how one interprets comments in the episode. But Picard... we are told it's a consciousness transfer, essentially the same as with Sargon and with katras and all that. The true essence of a being, moved from one physical shell to the other. The person inside is the same, from what we are told. Is a "person" just the physical parts, or is there an intangible life that exists beyond the purely physical and can be moved from one shell to another. Picard tells us its the latter, in this case. As such, he can most certainly have both categories, because they represent him in different stages of life, but as the same being. The person that is Jean-Luc Picard was in a traditionally-born human body, now he's in an organically-grown synthetic body. Both apply. --TimPendragon (talk) 05:55, March 28, 2020 (UTC)
The Memory Alpha:About Page states the goal of the encyclopedia:
Our goal is to become the largest, most reliable, and most up-to-date encyclopedia about everything related to the Star Trek universe.
To this end Memory Alpha must contain two listings one for the person of Jean-Luc Picard who was human and one for the person of Jean-Luc Picard who is an Android duplicated from the first moments before his death.
There seems to be a dezire of having a single page for ease of readers or charting everything in one place.
As Android Picard is now the only Picard (and he was created shortly before his original's death), I can see the dezire to have the encyclopedia article tell the story of the 2 beings as if they were one, but this is not the case. As is the situation with the recreation of Data's mind and also the being of Spock created in 2285. These people should have seperate articles also.
I would caution on letting articles be merged too easily that would be harder to unpick in years to come.
Please keep these as two seperate articles.
(TrevorPatrickRogers (talk) 12:13, March 28, 2020 (UTC))
This thread has gotten very long, so I've decided to make a list of everyone who participated in this discussion and how they stand on this issue. If I made a mistake, feel free to edit this list with your correct vote.
MERGE SPLIT UNDECIDED
  • 93.136.27.59
  • 31dot
  • JagoAndLitefoot
  • Argus Wryn
  • Noah Tall
  • 79.43.112.149
  • 75.97.53.134
  • Icecreamdif
  • Captain J
  • Oknazevad
  • Cmissonak
  • Alientraveller
  • TimPendragon
  • Spacebreather
  • HotHasperat
  • Archduk3
  • CAPTFREDRICKS
  • LCARS
  • Cleanse
  • Josiah Rowe
  • Alan
  • Madnana42
  • Memphis77
  • Roger Murtaugh
  • 206.144.209.33
  • Segway
  • Compvox
  • TrevorPatrickRogers
  • NetSpiker

*Josiah Rowe

  • Tuskin38
So why am I undecided? On the one hand, all the other characters in the episode treated the android Picard as the original, so the articles should be merged. But on the other hand, I think it's very likely that the writers of Season 2 will create some conflict by having at least one character who treats the android Picard as a synthetic copy of the original. I also fear that if the Picard articles are merged, this will be used as a precedent for merging the Roger Korby and Juliana articles, which I am completely against because the characters in those episodes thought of the androids as separate beings from the originals. --NetSpiker (talk) 13:18, March 28, 2020 (UTC)
IPs don't get a vote. Neither should newbies under a certain number of edits. Otherwise Im logging out to vote and then creating a few satellite accounts. --Alan (talk) 14:21, March 28, 2020 (UTC)

Indent reset

This isn't a vote, it's consensus building, but at least we have some numbers on the board. This will absolutely be used to merge the Juliana articles back to where there should be, but not Roger Korby. The point of that episode was different than the others, so the rationale here wouldn't apply. - Archduk3 14:42, March 28, 2020 (UTC)

Alan - What exactly is the Memory Alpha policy on editors leveraging sockpuppets to influence consensus? Do you really see an equivalency between new people speaking up and a single person using multiple accounts to make the same argument? HotHasperat (Talk) 15:56, March 28, 2020 (UTC)
NetSpiker: It's a given that some characters will treat him differently. Troi, for example, won't be able to sense his emotions. There will be at least one character who makes a joke about it. The vast majority of the time, however, I suspect we're going to see him be treated exactly like nothing's happened. Crucially, Picard will see himself as the same person, someone who was transferred, not copied, and he will have all the rights and privileges he had in his first body, just like Spock. If the writers of season 2 choose to take it in a wildly different direction from what I've predicted, then this discussion can be revisited at that time. Unless and until that happens, only one article is needed.
I think the biggest parallel is that Ira Graves was considered to be the same entity when he transferred his consciousness into Data's body. It wasn't until he later downloaded himself into the computer that the "human equation" was lost, at which point there as "knowledge but no consciousness." As an android, he had full consciousness, and he wasn't considered a separate character by the other characters or this wiki. So it should be with Picard. — LCARS 18:26, March 28, 2020 (UTC)
The "Simulated" Data's final moments are included in Data's wiki as part of his biography and not separated either, same as the apocrypha details where Data comes to life in B4's body. Our perceptions of what makes someone "real" are being challenged here and I'm guessing that was the writers' point. The question on whether the wikis should be one or two comes down to the answer on what we perceive is the measure of a man: Is Jean-Luc Picard still Jean-Luc Picard now that he has an artificially created (biological) body? If yes, then he should have one wiki. If no and Jean-Luc's story has ended, then it's two wikis. HotHasperat (Talk) 19:15, March 28, 2020 (UTC)
I'm more interested in the fact the Locutus of Borg is so easily forgotten in all of this, when he was a Borg for a few days. How that's not just another "chapter" of his being like this merge is expected to be? Why that "version" of Picard is treated to a separate person/article, but the Picard the Android being given the same consideration is not considered any less arbitrary. --Alan (talk) 21:59, March 28, 2020 (UTC)
It might make sense to merge Locutus as well, but that’s a different discussion. For one thing, Locutus pretty much considered himself to be a different being from Picard, while Picard now still considers himself to be the same man in a new body. Icecreamdif (talk) 22:12, March 28, 2020 (UTC)
The same rationale is applied to Locutus as would apply to Kamin, whom he "was" for 25 minutes. It's a different identity imposed onto Picard, supplanting Picard's own for the duration. "Length of time" doesn't matter. The identity matters, because Locutus -- as a person -- isn't the personality or "being" of Jean-Luc Picard, not really. Picard didn't decide to betray Starfleet and do all those things Locutus did. He was taken, assimilated, and reprogrammed with a new personality that subsumed the real Picard's until the assimilation was undone. The "person" of Locutus is not presented to be the same as the "person" of Jean-Luc Picard, though some characters harbor resentment towards Picard for Locutus' actions, as he does himself. Picard's body and knowledge were the vessel for the Borg, through the personality of Locutus. Are Bruce Banner and the Hulk the same character? Some would say yes, others no. Banner hates what the Hulk does, and the Hulk hates Banner's weakness. It's a debate, and it depends again, as all of this does, on how you definite what a "person" is, beyond just the physical body. The only other rationale I could even conceive of for that is if there's so much information about Locutus, it warrants a separate article just due to sheer volume and importance. But personally, I'd just as soon see [Locutus of Borg] redirect to that section of Picard's article, however long it needed to be. Ya'll can debate that elsewhere, without me, 'cause that bit doesn't matter to me. Redirect or separate articles. This is about whether Picard now and going forward is the same as Picard up to now, in his identity and personhood, regardless of body. --TimPendragon (talk) 22:17, March 28, 2020 (UTC)
Edit to add: The one I really don't get is Galen (alias), but at least that's marked as "alias" so, again, it's neither here nor there for me. --TimPendragon (talk) 22:31, March 28, 2020 (UTC)
Archduk3, how is Juliana Tainer any different from Roger Korby (android)? The Soong hologram makes it clear that Juliana Tainer is a separate person from his late wife:
SOONG: But there was a real Juliana O'Donnell. She was my wife.
SOONG: Here was a life not two minutes old, and as far as she knew I was her husband.
SOONG: The real Juliana probably would have left too, if she'd lived.
--NetSpiker (talk) 01:00, March 29, 2020 (UTC)
I agree. It should be merged with Jean-Luc Picard. This still is Jean Luc Picard, no matter what body he's in. His mind, his memories, he is the same man. Yes, I would however changes his species to biological android, and all of his info should be kept on the original "Jean Luc Picard" page.--203.40.209.164 01:44, March 29, 2020 (UTC)
Just saw this discussion and figured I would add my two cents: There are I think two pertinent criteria for whether there should be separate articles for these kinds of cases, whether Picard or Juliana or the others referenced above: Personhood, and article scope. I'll give my opinions on both, since I think a lot of the discussion is getting away from these two core criteria.
  1. For the first, if the two entities are entirely separate persons, they should have separate articles. This is especially true if they co-existed. This applies to all the examples given above: the two Roger Korby articles, Juliana Soong vs Tainer, Will vs Thomas Riker, Kahless vs his clone, Trip vs Sim, and so on. Personhood is of course subjective, but in all the instances given above, the production's intent has been clear to show they were separate persons, and this makes a suitable proxy for personhood. There's discussion to be had on this criterion about O'Brien and Kim and the other examples above, since those two co-existed at the same time.
  2. For the second, we need to remember that Memory Alpha itself is a real-world encyclopedia and that each article should have a reasonable scope. If the scopes are too small they should be merged, and if too large they should be split. We have a separate article about Locutus, not because Locutus was a separate person, but because it was an event and there's plenty of in-universe and production material to discuss about it. A good discussion is to be had about the Juliana Soong/Tainer articles mentioned above, as while they were different persons in the same sense as Will and Thomas Riker, it's something only touched upon in a single episode and the two subjects are largely inseparable from each other, especially as one is the direct successor as another. After all, even if Thomas Riker were only in a single episode, he would have his own article, as he continued to co-exist with Will. But the alternate O'Brien and Kim, and those other examples? In no way is there enough separate information to consider them outside the scope of their main articles.
For both of those reasons, I think the Picard golem article should be merged, as they are 1) clearly the same person with a single unbroken consciousness, and also not two separate entities that ever co-existed together, and 2) largely the same subject, entirely within the same scope. After all, the event of him being transferred into the golem would take up one or two paragraphs in the Picard article (and indeed, already does) under the '"Death" and resurrection' heading, and anything related to his having the golem body would simply be further stuff added to the article. It's the same for Spock and Culber's resurrection, or O'Brien and Kim's duplicates.
The other subjects at hand either meet both criteria to be separate (eg. Will and Thomas Riker), fail both criteria and are thus are single articles already (eg. Spock and Culber), or only meet one of the criteria and are mixed (eg. O'Brien and Kim being single articles, Korby being split), the first criterion seeming to be more persuasive in the community. Picard and the golem, I believe, fall into the second category, failing both criteria, and they should be merged. Thanks for taking the time to read my opinion. - MK (t/c) 07:27, March 29, 2020 (UTC)
We don't have separate Articles for The Doctor (on Voyager's computer) and The Doctor (on the mobile emitter) either. --95.88.96.133 08:01, March 29, 2020 (UTC)
Just recording that although I had not clearly expressed an opinion before (as both the arguments have some merit), if the choice were mine I would say to merge the two articles, as the implication in the episode seems clearly to be that this is the same person, merely in a new body. So I've moved my name in the tally above.
That said, Archduk3 is correct that the decision should be based not on a vote, but on consensus. —Josiah Rowe (talk) 20:26, March 29, 2020 (UTC)
Regarding consensus, please tell me we're not waiting for unanimous assent, because that will never happen. Even most of the people who would prefer a split seem to be willing to support the merge if that's the prevailing opinion, in the best interests of the wiki. --TimPendragon (talk) 21:48, March 29, 2020 (UTC)
It almost seems like some are waiting for the second season to see. I know that the creative team has said that there will be storylines based on "Picard 2.0", his new brain structure and his new body. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 23:17, March 29, 2020 (UTC)
We simply can't wait that long. If it were just a matter of next week's episode, or even the end of a season, that's one thing. But it will likely be over a year before Picard season two airs, at the absolute soonest given current circumstances, and that's far too long to leave this hanging. If season two provides data indicating they should be separated, then we can and should come back to this discussion and address it then. We have all the data we're going to get for a long time, and it seems we have a general consensus. --TimPendragon (talk) 23:37, March 29, 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, we shouldn’t wait until season 2. Right now, we should make our decision based on what we’ve seen in season 1. If season 2 changes things, then we can re-open this discussion again later. Icecreamdif (talk) 23:44, March 29, 2020 (UTC)

I'll add my two quatloos too, fwiw. ;) Both sides have ample evidence to support their (truly well-made) arguments but I find myself most convinced by the Merged side, at the end. For me, it's still Chateau Picard, even if it's now served in a plastic bottle. ;) --Darth Duranium (talk) 00:01, March 30, 2020 (UTC)

Proposal to perhaps settle this because a bunch of people feel strongly for 1 page and a number feel strongly for separation, what about merging the pages but have everything which happens as Golem Picard in a section specifically named as such? Thus it shows Golem Picard is (for as far as we can tell presently) very much a continuation of Picard, and makes it easy to find, while showing it as an arguably separate entity? --151.228.190.56 00:10, March 30, 2020 (UTC)

That's always been a given. Everything after the moment he died in Raffi's arms would aboslutely, obviously, begin a new section of the article, probably titled "Resurrection", followed by something like "In a New Body" or something. That should absolutely suffice. --TimPendragon (talk) 00:20, March 30, 2020 (UTC)
It'll be interesting to see what they do with it. Who knows what they have planned? For all we know, this new Picard could be completely different and they could make a plot twist where Altan is, in fact, Lore and has programmed an evil Picard. You never know. Or, it'll be the exact same as the character before. Whatever happens, I feel like this will be a conversation that does continue during Season 2, whatever happens here. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 00:33, March 30, 2020 (UTC)
Such things are possible, even if right now Chabon and the producers say otherwise. But speculating about such possibilities is, at the present, counterproductive. Everybody agrees we'll revisit if and when the need arises. The main concern -- and I think we all agree on this -- is ease of finding the information for people who come here looking for it. For that reason, it needs to get settled sooner, rather than later. --TimPendragon (talk) 04:41, March 30, 2020 (UTC)
My $0.02: We don't have enough information to make a decision at this time. Wait until Season 2, and see how they treat Picard (golem) there. If they truly do treat him as the same individual as Picard (human), then merge the articles. Until then, it is an unknown. Keep them separate for now, merge later if necessary. I don't see why this is a decision that must be made immediately. --172.113.243.228 17:18, March 31, 2020 (UTC)
It will probably be at least a year before the next season of Picard comes out. In the mean time, the pages need to either be merged or remain separate. We can only make our decision based on the canon info that we have now, and right now everything suggests that Picard is the same being that he always was. If new information in season 2 changes that, then we can always split the pages again. Icecreamdif (talk) 17:39, March 31, 2020 (UTC)
Re: NetSpiker, I agree 100%. The outcome of this should not reflect on Juliana Soong/Juliana Tainer whatsoever. She was absolutely identified as two different people by holo-Soong himself. Regarding the weird logic (and some folk's fixation with irrelevant nuances in their counterarguments) between this and Locutus is perplexing. Picard can have his body and mind taken over, and he is a different person, but when his mind picks up roots and moves from a his dead carcass to a totally *new* fabricated body, then he is the pseudo-same person? Yeah, that doesn't entirely add up. Regardless, in the meantime, I guess I'm keen on merging it in as far as housekeeping goes, though we may want to consider a redirect name to give the new Picard, to somewhat isolate the two, let's say, bodies. --Alan (talk) 18:15, March 31, 2020 (UTC)
FWIW, Alan, I agree with you about Juliana. However, you're once again mischaracterizing something as "irrelevant" just because you disagree with it. Let me try and explain in another way. Was Sargon still Sargon when he was in Kirk's body? Or, because he was in Kirk's body, did that make him Kirk? The same can be asked of Janice Lester and Kirk, or the Warlord who took over Kes, or any number of other things. When a new personality, a new identity overtakes someone's body, we have treated the "invader" as a separate being from the possessed. Locutus *could* seem in the same light. Or we can merge that into Picard. I don't care about that one way or the other. The conciousness, the person with in the body is different, so we have an established track record of treating it as different. Here, in Picard, we are told the conciousness is the same, passed on to a new shell, not taking over someone else's. In that sense, it's the same as Spock being the same pre- and post-Genesis. If you consider that distinction to be irrelevant, or "nitpicky," then it really looks like you're basing your determination solely off the body, which contradicts both established lore and established practice here on Memory Alpha. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to understand what your definition of a "person" is, because it seems to be limited to the phsyical body, or otherwise contradictory. The bottom line for me is that -- based on the information we have at the present -- if we split Picard now, we also then need to split Spock. --TimPendragon (talk) 20:06, March 31, 2020 (UTC)

Watch "Inheritance" again. Soong makes a distinction between the Human and the android versions while making the case that there isn't one. He didn't "copy" her memories, he transfered them. "I tried to perfect my synaptic scanning technique so that I could transfer Juliana's memories into a positronic matrix. [...] It had worked!" She dosen't need to know she an android becuase "The truth is, in every way that matters, she is Juliana Soong." Even her leaving him is the same thing the "real" Juliana would have done, he says it himself: "The real Juliana would have left too". If you switch out Juliana with Picard here all the same arguments work, and are litlertly the same arguments that have been made. As far as the episode is concerned, there is no difference between the character of the Human and android Julianas just like there is no difference between the Human and golem Picards. - Archduk3 20:23, March 31, 2020 (UTC)

I don't know if I can completely agree with that. The hologram of Noonian speeks out of both sides of his mouth when referring to Juliana as both real and not. To me, that means it's really open to interpretation. There isn't nearly so much ambiguity with Picard, in how they discuss the proceedure or how they refer to him after.
Just for clarity sake, I'm wondering... shouldn't there be a "merge suggestion" notice on the article, directing people to this conversation? There's one one the golem article directing people here, but shouldn't also be on this article? --TimPendragon (talk) 20:24, March 31, 2020 (UTC)

No, this article isn't merging there, that article is merging here.

Watch the episode again and remember it's written in the 90s. It's precise with it's language in a way that modern shows aren't while still being "fall off a cliff and loose an arm" clear about the message. - Archduk3 20:36, March 31, 2020 (UTC)

If you're going to say that human Picard and golem Picard are different people, then you might as well argue that everyone dies when they enter a transporter. Wratched (talk) 20:49, March 31, 2020 (UTC)

Archduk3, I watched the episode a few days before Picard began, because I figured it would be relevant, and again just two days ago, because I enjoyed it -- Fionnula Flanagan always gives a wonderful performance -- and someone else wanted to see it. It is, very clearly in my mind, open to interpretation and a case can be made on either side, so with regards to Juliana, I really can't say whether she's the same as Picard, or closer to Korby (without the dificiences). So I'm not going to come down hard one way or the other on that one in particular. --TimPendragon (talk) 20:58, March 31, 2020 (UTC)
One thing I just thought of, that I don't think anyone else has brought up (if they did, I missed it, sorry): We have established precedent for Picard's conciousness being placed in a new body and still being treated as the same person. "Lonely Among Us". His physical body was dispersed into the energy cloud, the original body no longer existed. They say as much in the episode. But his consciousness survived, found its way back into the transporter circuits, and they were able to reconstitute him from his transport pattern. That episode is unambiguous that Picard's body was destroyed and remade, and he's still Picard. The only real difference between then and now is the kind of new body he's in. --TimPendragon (talk) 21:13, March 31, 2020 (UTC)
My thinking in the separating of these articles was the fact that his original brain was mapped. The way that Data described the process, seemed like it wasn't a trasnfer, but a replication, much like the Data we saw in the latest episode. Not the original, but a copy. We know that it's not the same exact mind in Picard, as they removed his brain abnormality. If it was possible to do so without a rebuilding and a copy, why not just leave Picard in his original body with his original brain and just remove the abnormality? Anyway, that was my thinking as to why they're different beings. Essentially, it's the same man in the way that his mind was mapped, but with the various differences and the fact that they were able to remove his brain abnormality and create a brand new body, makes him seem different to me. His mind being changed and his brain abnormality being removed swayed me more than the new body. At least with Spock, it was a mind that was unchanged, but they have altered this one. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 21:22, March 31, 2020 (UTC)
Roger, there's a difference between the brain as an organ, which is where the abnormality was, and the mind as the "self" of a person. For example, removing a lesion on the brain doesn't change the personhood of the person who's physical brain is now different. We're talking about continuity of conciousness, not the physical repair involved. They couldn't fix his dying human body, but they could duplicate it onto the blank golem template *without* the anomaly. That's a new brain as an organ, but not necessarily a new mind. Also, regarding Data, people asked Chabon why Data couldn't have been placed into a new body instead of just spending a decade or more in that simulated limbo. Chabon's response was that it wasn't fully Data, but a reconstruction from what Maddox had pulled out of B-4, whereas Picard was his full self. That's Chabon's answer to that. You are absolutely right to bring up the point, and you have been acting in good faith throughout this entire discussion, as have most others. --TimPendragon (talk) 21:32, March 31, 2020 (UTC)
Oh, I understand that. The way that the writers speak of it outside of the episode makes it sound like his mind was simply transfered and not copied. Just, for me, it feels like a different being now. In the sense that Thomas Riker isn't William T. Riker. For me, it's in the way they phrased the process. With Picard having had a neural image of his brain's substrates being mapped and scanned, the wording, to me, makes it feel like more of a copy than his original consciousness, as neural substrates aren't the entirety of the brain. It just felt like he was missing pieces of what made him who he was, is all. Even with his consciousness, it didn't seem logical to me that he was exactly the same man. Just the way it was said makes me feel as if it's rather vague and I took it as being a copy. I may have been wrong, as clearly I'm not an expert on the mind, but I felt like expanding on my reasoning. Also, this was my thinking when I first made the article. I'm not sure how I feel entirely now. Also, thank you for recognizing that I am acting in good faith. I'm only bringing up these points as an explanation of why I felt it was merited, as this has become a rather lengthy debate. I am uncertain of if it'll be one page, or two, but I'm hopeful to see it resolved with some ease. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 00:29, April 1, 2020 (UTC)

Just throwing my two cents in. I don't think Roger Korby and his duplicate's articles should be merged. It's implied in the episode that the Android Korby doesn't really even act like the original. Furthermore, he was created before the technology that (re)created Juliana and Picard (or even Data) existed, so we can reasonably assume Android Korby does not possess Roger Korby's "mind."

As for the main issue regarding the two Picards, as long as the writing staff considers Golem Picard to be the same individual as Jean-Luc Picard, the articles should be the same. If that changes in Season 2, then they should be separate.

Regarding whether or not Juliana's two articles should be separate or not, I feel the episode made it ambiguous enough for the viewer to make his own conclusions regarding her, so either way is fine in my book. --Thethincontroller (talk) 01:55, April 1, 2020 (UTC)

Mentioned at TrekMovie

Just noting that Trekmovie.com mentions the above discussion in this piece. 31dot (talk) 20:58, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

I saw that. Rather interesting. It seems that this debate is occurring there, as well. Even with a consensus, for the most part, here, it seems that the discussion will continue between fans for quite some time. Thank you for sharing that article. I knew that the debate above was quite memorable as it was occurring. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 21:18, April 2, 2020 (UTC)
Good thing we made the press deadline then, that could have been awkward. - Archduk3 21:21, April 2, 2020 (UTC)
Haha. Well said. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 21:39, April 2, 2020 (UTC)
Well done to all, this was, both throughout and in the end, an example of how debate online should be conducted. I for one appreciate it, I'll be pointing students to this discussion for some time to come. And hey, the article quoted one of my points as a "philosophical question," and I'm well chuffed. :) --TimPendragon (talk)

Species

I think it would be more accurate to list Picard's second species as "Biological Android" as it was on the golem wiki. That is a better description and more accurately reflects his current status. The term golem referred to the empty and incomplete vessel. HotHasperat (Talk) 17:38, April 3, 2020 (UTC)

That would be "inventing" a term when we have one from the episodes. You're most liekly right, but this is where we have to wait for season 2. - Archduk3 17:59, April 3, 2020 (UTC)
Right now, best as we know, he's the same physical species as Soji. But yeah, that bit can wait for season two. It doesn't affect availability/visibility of the information. --TimPendragon (talk) 22:11, April 3, 2020 (UTC)
I suppose there's no harm in waiting, but I was also under the impression that "golem" referred to the body in its "unfinished" form, without any consciousness. Was the term ever used to refer to Picard after his consciousness is placed in the android body? If not, aren't we misrepresenting the meaning of the word by using it to refer to Picard?
The desire to stick to terms used on screen is admirable, but not if those terms are misused. If we want a term that's used on screen, how about "flesh-and-blood android," which is the term Picard used to describe Dahj to Dr. Jurati? —Josiah Rowe (talk) 03:50, April 5, 2020 (UTC)
I re-watched the scene after Picard regained consciousness. He referred to his body as "the golem". Timestamp 56:58.--Memphis77 (talk) 03:56, April 5, 2020 (UTC)
Well, he says, "Tell me about this body... this golem." That's a bit ambiguous, and the word doesn't seem to me to be a "species" in that context. But I suppose it'll do for now. —Josiah Rowe (talk) 05:19, April 5, 2020 (UTC)

Retirement date incorrect.

The date on the career timeline for Picard's retirement is incorrect. He retired in 2385, not 2387. The Flashback in which he retires states "14 years ago," while the main story is in 2399.

140.32.108.252 21:18, April 3, 2020 (UTC)

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