Talk:Juliana Tainer

Detection

Why couldn't Geordi tell that she was an android? Can't his VISOR figure that stuff out?--Megs 08:50, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Because she was specifically designed not to show up or be detectable as an android.

RIKER: "Why does the scanner read her as a human?"

BEVERLY: "There's a feedback processor that's designed to send out a false bio-signal."

There you go. She also had tear ducts and capillaries below the skin. --OuroborosCobra ^talk 09:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow, thank you very much!--Megs 16:52, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Why couldn't Troi detect that something was off about Juliana? Wasn't it mentioned earlier in the series that Data is unusual in that she senses nothing from him? – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.211.251.150.

When Data acquires emotions for the first time because of Lore Troi is able to sense those emotions. Presumably if Juliana has a similar emotion chip then Troi would sense emotions from her as well --BorgKnight (talk) 07:00, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

nitpicks

• It is unclear how exactly Dr. Soong managed to get the explanation for why Juliana left him into the holographic program he implanted into her positronic brain, since Juliana presumably left him after the program was created. It is possible that he deactivated her after she decided to leave in order to implant information about her departure.

• Another possibility is that Dr. Soong created an active update algorithm that would constantly update the holographic data implant based on her experiences and memories subsequent to his installation of the implant.

or maybe he hunted her down and sent out a special signal to disable her then he reprogrammed her - seriously...nitpicking... — Morder 05:17, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Identifying what she played

Quick question. Does anyone know the name of the piece Data and Dr. Tainer perform together in Ten Forward?

--174.113.156.245 14:45, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

Consulting the episode article, it apparently was Passacaglia for Violin and Viola. 31dot 15:08, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

Human v Android

Separate Page?

Since the real Juliana Tainer and the android Juliana are two different entities, they should have two different pages. For example, there is a James T. Kirk (android) page, separate from the normal page. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.26.249.72.

I'm not sure yet, but that is a very interesting point. 31dot (talk) 03:17, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

I would say no, as the android is the continuation of the person who came before, and isn't just a fragment or one off program. It should be noted we have conflicting precedents here (see Rodek, Seska, Tasha Yar), so there isn't any clear standard. - Archduk3 03:25, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

I think I'm leaning no as well; we don't have separate pages for the Miles O'Brien from three hours in the future who continued the existence of his dead past self("Visionary") or for the Harry Kim and Naomi Wildman who both continued the lives of their dead duplicates("Deadlock"). 31dot (talk) 09:13, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

This isn't a different time counterpart of the same person though, it is a robot made in its image, like the James T. Kirk Android.– The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.26.249.72.

Please sign your posts by clicking the Signature button. The purpose of the Kirk android was initially not to replace the real Kirk, nor did it succeed in doing so- otherwise there would probably only be one article. In this case, the android was created to assume the persona and memories of Juliana after she had died. The Kim and Naomi duplicates aren't different time counterparts, they were duplicates from the duplicated Voyager. 31dot (talk) 12:49, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

Not Juliana Tainer

Further to my edit, wanted to comment here that, from "Inheritance", the human died when they reached Terlina III after the Crystalline Entity's attack. It was the android created after that who eventually left Soong and married Pran Tainer. Unless I've got something wrong. Thebilldude (talk) 00:10, March 27, 2017 (UTC)

I propose a split on account that there was a Human who existed with this identity, who lived and died, and while they may not know it, this is not that person. This goes along the lines of the same precedence as all the split of Ruth and Finnegan and all the rest that were a 2 for 1 deal. --Alan (talk) 15:12, February 21, 2020 (UTC)

I want to agree, but why her but not Spock? -- Capricorn (talk) 17:46, February 21, 2020 (UTC)

Spock's an android? --Alan (talk) 18:24, February 21, 2020 (UTC)

According to some theories I've seen about PIC he actually would be. But more seriously, Tainerbot was said to be created by transferring the memories of the original Tainer into a robot body. Spock died but managed to transfer his katra (which sounds like magic but is presumably still science) to McCoy, and they eventually ended up in a what amounted to a cloned body. So why split this but not post-TSFS Spock? (I'm assuming here that we're not ready to split Spock...) -- Capricorn (talk) 18:57, February 21, 2020 (UTC)

Roger Korby/Roger Korby would be a better (nearly spot-on) comparison for this discussion, or Kirkdriod. --Alan (talk) 19:06, February 21, 2020 (UTC)

Not sure what the rush here was, but still opposed to this, see above, and I guess we can just consider this the start of the merge discussion then. - Archduk3 19:21, February 26, 2020 (UTC)

This is quite easily a no brainer split. There are two distinct individuals here. And your opposition is 8 years old and long before we began the eventual process of splitting like literally every other duplicate android/human (say about 9 of them) and the clone/bioreplicant separated articles. --Alan (talk) 19:30, February 26, 2020 (UTC)

No, there are most definitely NOT two distinct individuals here, that was the whole point. Juliana the Human and Juliana the android are not different characters, one is the continuation of the other. The android doesn't even know she is one, so nothing she does could be considered different from what the Human would have done. Did we even see the same episode? - Archduk3 19:43, February 26, 2020 (UTC)

Since there was opposition to this split, and it was done with less than a week for comments, I've merged these back. After the long discussion about Picard, which included this, there is still no consensus either way, so no changes should have been made. - Archduk3 09:23, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

Archduk3, the only opposition was from you. Maybe Alan shouldn't have split the article without waiting a week, but you are also wrong for merging them without anyone else to support your opinion. The Jean-Luc Picard situation doesn't apply here because the Juliana android was not treated as the same person by the Soong hologram.

I provided three quotes to support the idea that they are separate beings, while you provided only one quote to support the idea that they are the same being. Furthermore, the Juliana android blinks differently, plays music differently and is designed to shut down if she ever discovers she's an android. And Dr. Soong only claims that he transferred her memories, not her mind or consciousness. --NetSpiker (talk) 11:00, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

He obviously glossed over the parts where he was wrong. --Alan (talk) 11:42, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

NetSpiker is correct. "Memories" are not the same as "conciousness" -- Roger Korby is an example of that -- and there is more in the episode that would lean towards her being a replica and not the same "person" inside the "shell." Both sides can be argued, and the case for Juliana, either way, is in no way as clear cut as Archduk3 seems to think it is. --TimPendragon (talk) 11:58, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

First off, NetSpiker didn't provide three quotes, he copied three things from the transcript site, one of which is so wrong it changes the meaning. So, at best, there are two. Then apparently "only I" listened to the end the scene, since every quote provided is followed right away by another that disproves the point your all so wrong about. Don't worry though, I have a single line from the character you all seem to think should be the arbiter here that will clear this all up:

"The truth is, in every way that matters, she is Juliana Soong."

That's pretty fucking clear, and it's the point of the whole episode, but apparently that's not clear enough for some.

Now I'll explain what consensuses building is, since it's literately the foundation this wiki is built on and too many of you people don't even understand the basic principal. It's about the mitigation of arguments, not a vote, so no matter how many times someone comes along and says some shit like "the Human and android are different" my "the android is the continuation of the person who came before" opposition remains until it is addressed, which it was not before this was split. Also, anything that isn't a "yes" is "opposition" to an extent. 31dot and Capricorn, both "leaning" one way or the other, weren't convinced with a "android =/= Human" argument, so they were opposed to the article changing on those grounds alone. That's all that was brought to the table here though, so this page should never have been split in the first place. It would have been changed back a month ago too, but I've been too busy with other parts of this thankless and unpaid job to have the time. It's also straight up lying to even suggest at this point that I'm the only person who supports this being a single article, because you're all referencing the very discussion where there is plenty of support. Shame on all of you, and on your cows.

These new arguments are pretty weak too, since we all agree an android body is different from a Human body is certain ways, some more so than others, and if you're unclear if memories and consciousness are suppose to be the same thing here, I refer you back to the quote above from Dr. Soong, again. - Archduk3 12:15, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

Calm down Archduk, we can all read your writing in regular-sized font. And no, "anything that isn't a yes" isn't opposition. It's possible to be undecided on a topic.

What was wrong with the quotes I provided? I did copy them from the transcript site, but they appear to be the same as in the original script. Did Soong say something different in the actual episode?

I have addressed your opposition, but you still cling to that one quote because for some reason you think it's more authoritative than the other quotes and evidence from the episode.

31dot's comment was many years ago, long before the Roger Korby split, the Losira split, the Excalbian split and the Weyoun split changed the way Memory Alpha deals with duplicates, so it doesn't count. Capricorn appears to be undecided.

In my experience, it's extremely rare to convince someone on the opposing side of an argument when it's not an open-and-shut case. The best you can hope for is to convince those that haven't yet made their decision. Which is why I do think it should come down to a vote. --NetSpiker (talk) 12:50, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

Age

In the scene in sickbay where Data and Dr. Crusher are studying the bio data of Juliana Tainer the display graphic says "Tainer, Dr. Juliana F-67". Could this be Female - Age 67? Just a thought. Tom (talk) 15:40, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Altan?

Can Altan be listed under "Other Relatives"? In Correct (talk) 14:53, March 26, 2020 (UTC)

I think Alton is a sibling TrekCutie (talk) 16:52, March 26, 2020 (UTC)