There seems to be absolutely nothing that provides a valid resource for the name "Kaylar"; it seems to be someone's misunderstanding of the line from Vina. Unless someone has something else on this, or unless someone has the original script, it seems the closed captioning would be the closest thing to a resource that can be looked to. That would make the name "Kaylar" non-canon and should result in the deletion of the article. So does anyone have anything? Aholland 15:45, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I can tell you that deletion of the article is not an option, as the article is valid, although the name may not be. If no source for the name can be found, then it will be moved accordingly. --From Andoria with Love 19:26, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I was inarticulate; sorry. I was not proposing the deletion of the information, which is fine, just associating it with some other name so that this particular article no longer exists under this name. Maybe I'll look at "The Making of" as I recall vaguely some portions of the script was in there. Absent finding something, I think that "Rigel Warrior" might work (since Pike referred to them as warriors). Aholland 21:18, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
- If they were truly not named "Kaylar" in the episodes, then I propose they follow the Unnamed humanoids example and be moved to Rigel VII native. "Warrior" is a description of their activity, not a species name. A note about the Kaylar mishap should be noted, and a redirect kept.--Tim Thomason 23:18, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Here's what I've found out:
- "The Making of Star Trek" does not mention Kaylar or other designation.
- The "Star Trek Encyclopedia" and StarTrek.com both list "Kaylar" for the alien.
- The DVD closed captioning says "killer", which is what started this whole thing.
- I do not have and cannot find any reference for the actual script. BUT . . . we have the next best thing: James Blish's adaptations. In Star Trek 4 he adapts "The Menagerie" and says the alien is: the Kalar. Now, Blish worked from the scripts rather than film or videotape. The odds that he would, independently, come up with such a similar name are astronomical. So it is logical that "Kalar" was the spelling in the script that Blish saw. Given that, the analysis under the new canon policy would be to consider the Enclyclopedia to be a Restricted Validity Resource, that for this purpose it can have a primary Trek Universe article based on it (see the policy for why), and that Blish's book can be noted as a non-canon point of interest.
Bottom line: Keep "Kaylar" as is, but note that the DVD says "killer" and Blish says "Kalar". (That's a lot of work to have gone to for one minor character in a 42 year old TV production.) I will make the notations. Aholland 15:08, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
- I checked the episode some time ago. Vina says "Kaylar" and the subtitle says "killer", that's true. The DVD subtitles however have proven to be very unreliable in the past (see Talk:Wilhelm Gottsreich Sigismond von Ormstein, for example). What helps in those cases is switching to another language version of the episode (if other languages are included on the DVD). When an episode is translated into another language, the translators are provided with the original scripts of the episodes and use these to translate the dialogue into the foreign language. In the German version of the episode, Vina also says "Kaylar", she also says Kaylar in the Italian version. Now, if the would have said "killer" in the original script and episode, she would have said "Mörder" in the German episode, or "assassinato" in the Italian dubbing, both meaning "killer".
- Now, the funny thing starts with the subtitles. When creating the subtitles for the other languages, the DVD producers don't bother to watch the dubbings of the episodes but simply translate the English subtitles (and their mistakes) into the other languages. That is why, for example, in the German version of the episode, Vina says "Kaylar", but the subtitle says "Mörder", which she clearly didn't say in the recorded German dialogue (the same is true for the Italian dubbing and subtitles).
- This can be very amusing if watching DS9's "Babel", for example. When Miles O'Brien starts to speak gibberish, because of the aphasia virus, this weird dialogue can also be found in the subtitles, exactly as it was spoken. Now, when the gibberish was translated into German for the German dubbing, the authors of the translation decided to not just translate it word for word, but created completely new dialogue which was much more lyric than the original (example: "It was the lark, not the lift. When birds go on a trek to seek the vastness than the south will soon be their goal"). Now, when switching on the subtitles, one would expect the subtitles to repeat this new dialogue, but instead, there's just the English dialogue translated into German.
- Now, what did I want to say with all of this? Well, the DVD subtitles are not very trustworthy, as in this case, and the name Kaylar is not disputed. It was there from the start, the subtitles are wrong. --Jörg 20:26, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
- Star Trek.com's resources are 100% canon, and they list this species, or at least this civilization, as the Kaylar. End of discussion. --The Rev 16:41, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Please review the Canon policy in effect at Memory Alpha. StarTrek.com is not accepted as canon (and is often wrong itself about things). I assume, though, that no changes are needed to the article. Aholland 18:21, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Confirmation of spelling Edit
I agree; even though it's not the final draft of the episode's script I have (it's one with Captain Winter in it, but most of the dialogue, etc. is the same), I still think it should be counted as a valid source, along with Blish's "The Menagerie" novelization. --Defiant 23:04, July 27, 2011 (UTC)