Talk: Khitomer

Whose possession?

Was Khitomer a Romulan planet during the 2290s? It would explain why a Romulan flag was prominently featured on the conference building, why it was considered a neutral location, and why the Romulans attacked it in the 24th century.--James Cody 22:16, 20 Dec 2004 (CET)

I've just seen an interesting LCARS display in "Birthright, Part II", which for my understanding clearly shows Khitomer to lie within Romulan space today, although on the veeeery edge of it, right next to the Neutral Zone. I'll try to upload the respective pic the next days. Kennelly 22:41, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Here's the map:

A map of a part of the Neutral Zone.

Beat you to it, Kennelly ;-) – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jörg (talk • contribs).

Well it would make one wonder if the Romulans conquered Khitomer during their attack on it, except there is that line about Ross meeting Gowron there, and that would seem to imply the Klingons still have it. --Alan del Beccio 19:22, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Disputed territory, perhaps? 67.150.71.161 02:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I think a disputed planet would security-wise be a horrible choice for such an important conference hosting so much important personal, especialy since, well, face it, the first ones to sabotage a Klingon-Federation aliance trough complex covert operations would be the Romulans, and though in the end starfleet was a driving force, so was Nanclus. Not to mention that the klingons would certainly have removed the Romulan logo after (re)taking the planet.

That being said, there certainly was some strange kind of Romulan involvement in the conference that was never sufficiently adressed. First you have the Romulan ambassador at a Federation presidential meeting for no real reason whatsoever, and then romulan personel, like Pardek at khitomer with equally poor justification. My guess was that Khitomer, always inside Romulan space, was a meeting place between the two empires. that would even explain Worfs statement about the Khitomer Massacre "at a time when they were supposed to be our allies" though they were also said to be blood enemies by 2292 (clearly implying that the Romulan-Klingon Alliance had ended by that time). With "at a time when they were supposed to be our allies" he wasn't referring specifically to the year 2346, but rather to the fact that the Romulans attacked under the guise of some diplomatic mission, on a neutral planet. Now as for Ross, he's obviously too young to have been at the Khitomer conference, but he might have visited such an important diplomatic location at any time, and an especially the peace negotiations after the Federation-Klingon War (2372-73) might be a likely candidate for this encounter. Capricorn 09:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite suggestion

Now as for more useful discussion about what to do with the article, I think the map should be placed in the main article, as it is a valuable and canon resource on the location of Khitomer. It should also be noted that Khitomer is in Romulan space "as of 2369", and all other references to it being in klingon space removed, as they are essentially based on circumstantial evidence that as convincing as it might seem is not cannon and "syncs" badly with canon. Notes about this indications of Khitomer being a klingon planet/in the klingon sphere of influence should be made, as well as an extensive note explaining exactly how little we really know for certain about this issue. Also the Romulan symbol on the building should be noted in the background (IMO of all evidence about khitomer not being a klingon planet at the time this is the hardest to rationalize away). Basicly the situation of this article is somewhat like the article on the earth-romulan war, it is easy to get a coherent history with minimal speculation, but even the littlest of speculation results in strongly favouring one possible view about how it went above another, so it cant be allowed, even if it leaves very little certain information to build a coherent article from. Please someone comment, I really care about this article and I'd hate to have to rewrite it myself this way because no one else cares, since my proposal certainly could benefit from a second (and third) opinion. Capricorn 09:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be information suggesting both a Klingon jurisdiction (Romulan attack, memorial built later) and a Romulan one (symbols, map), but no clear factual information for a sole Klingon presence at any time. My personal best-guess would be a Klingon/Romulan joint-venture (like planet Nimbus III) which later failed, but for this article, a rewrite as you suggest it sounds like the best idea - unless I'm missing some important details... ;) -- Cid Highwind 15:49, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, there is something that is being missed here. There are more flags on the building than just the Romulan flag - if I presume you are discussing File:Camp Khitomer, 2293.jpg. The Romulan pennant is clearly visible at the right, yes; however, there is also a Federation flag at the left of the building - partially hidden by the outer wall, but matching the flag in the immediate foreground; a red flag with brown stripe being held by a standard-bearer in the courtyard below, matching the Klingon flag seen inside the conference; and three flags - one white, one yellow-brown, one red, in the background. This, I think, is more indicative of the tripartite conference, rather than a declaration of planetary control, and therefore offers the rationalisation you were looking for, Capricorn ;).

In addition, Khitomer is specifically stated as being "near the Romulan border" by Sulu in TUC. A planet in Romulan space would not be described in this way - such a description would suggest a location outside Romulan territory, although not necessarily in another sovereign territory.

Therefore, I believe these pieces of evidence - particularly the first - strongly refute the claim that Khitomer was under Romulan control at the time of the Conference, and leave us solely with the "neutral site" descriptor. [Two things that I would love to get my hands on that might help with this are the first page of the Operation Retrieve mission plan, showing the Federation-Klingon border, and the Klingon invasion plans seen shortly thereafter...]

What we can say, therefore, based on canon: "a neutral site" in 2293; location of a Klingon colony attacked by the Romulans in 2346, claimed by the Romulans as of 2369. As a result, I have executed what I consider to be an appropriate rewording. -- Michael Warren | Talk 16:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

The building

The external view of the conference building looks like the command center from Mighty Morphin Power Rangers.

It is the same building. It was also used as a location in the episode Descent 144.136.192.38 13:57, July 22, 2014 (UTC)

Background Information

The exact status of Khitomer – under whose sphere of influence it falls – at the time of the conference is never made clear. The Star Trek Encyclopedia states it to be "near the Romulan/Klingon border", but whether it was claimed by either empire at the time is left unsaid. However, it would seem unlikely to be considered "a neutral site" in either case.

Removed as it's unknown and speculative. — Morder (talk) 10:00, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Outpost

Is the outpost referenced here deserving of a separate article? Of interest is that Khitomer is mis=spelled as "KhitomAr".--LauraCC (talk) 20:59, December 9, 2016 (UTC)

There's precedent for having both with Vega vs Vega colony, but the way I read it, the "Khitomer" in the title and the "Khitomar(/Khitomer) outpost" in the text seem to be two ways of referring to the same thing. So aside from mentioning that Khitomer was/held an outpost, I wouldn't do anything more. -- Capricorn (talk) 08:49, December 10, 2016 (UTC)