Talk: Oh

Romulan?

"Maps and Legends"

Why does this say she is a Romulan? She has a box with the Vulcan IDIC on her desk and a replica of the Vulcan Kir'Shara on her desk too. Just because she is conspiring with Romulans doesnt make her one. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.140.240.255.

In her conversation with Rizzo, she gave her subordinate a lecture about being undercover and how Rizzo's team had nearly blown their cover. She would not be the first Romulan posing as a Vulcan - there was a Romulan spy who posed as a Vulcan ambassador in "Data's Day".--Memphis77 (talk) 15:37, January 30, 2020 (UTC)

Humorously enough, two examples of this were named Selok and Talok. --Alan (talk) 15:40, January 30, 2020 (UTC)

Her affect also changes completely when she's talking to Rizzo. She's a lot more emotional than you'd expect from a Vulcan, yet she acts entirely cool when she's on the phone with the admiral.--Cliffy7373 (talk) 16:59, January 30, 2020 (UTC)

On the other hand, Rizzo called her a valuable ally, not an operative. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 17:31, January 30, 2020 (UTC)

From Talk:Maps and Legends (episode).

Is there a citation on where Commodore Oh was proven to be a Romulan? Seems like she's Vulcan sympathizer. Icyneko (talk) 15:22, January 30, 2020 (UTC)

Rizzo calls her an "ally" which points to Vulcan rather than Romulan. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 17:35, January 30, 2020 (UTC)

I also think this description as an "ally" calls into question her Zhat Vash affiliation, too -- even Narek and Rizzo's Zhat Vash ties are only suggested at this point. If she is a Romulan agent in Starfleet, perhaps she's "only" Tal Shiar. -- Sethant (talk) 07:57, January 31, 2020 (UTC)

She is shown as an example of the new Romulan makeup for the series in TRR: "Maps and Legends". - Archduk3 20:08, January 30, 2020 (UTC)

True, but it could have just as well be a mistake of whoever edited the Red Room episode. Within the story it's not that clear. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 23:34, January 30, 2020 (UTC)

I agree, and, as such, I have edited her species to Vulcan or Romulan; I'm pretty sure the intent is to keep the audience guessing on this question for at least a little while. -- Sethant (talk) 23:45, January 30, 2020 (UTC)

If the make-up is supposed to establish her as Romulan, then how is she said to be posing as a Vulcan? You can't have that both ways. -- Capricorn (talk) 10:58, January 31, 2020 (UTC)

Actually, since both types of Romulans are in this show, I can have it both ways. Browless Romulans are visibly Vulcans, which is kinda the point. We are also suppose to trust production sources unless we have a reason not to, and the possibility of her being Vulcan right now doesn't outweigh her possibility being a Romulan and them showing her as an example of Romulan makeup.

That said, much like with everything every time new content comes out, we can be "wrong" now as long as we are consistently wrong. That's easy to fix when we know better later, but not being consistent means we'll just be wrong longer as someone will have to go through everything manually. So stop editing the page back and forth; it's going to be real dumb if we have to lock a stub page. - Archduk3 17:19, January 31, 2020 (UTC)

I still believe that my phrasing: "of Vulcan or Romulan descent" is the most consistent with what we know at present:

• Pointy ears (Vulcan or Romulan)
• Starfleet flag officer (leans towards Vulcan)
• IDIC and Kirshara in her office (leans towards Vulcan)
• Dispassionately logical in conversation with Adm. Clancy (leans towards Vulcan)
• Linked to what looks like the Zhat Vash and undercover Romulan operatives (leans towards Romulan)
• Referred to as an "ally" by Lt. Rizzo (suggests maybe not Romulan, or at least not Zhat Vash?)
• "Oh" is inconstent with known Romulan and Vulcan names, but is consistent with the actresses' Asian descent (points towards part Human?)
• Substantially more emotional in conversation with Lt. Rizzo (points towards Romulan or part Human).

I tend to think that any articles should be as specific as possible, yes, but without being wrong -- and, when the writers are clearly trying to head-fake us in some way (and while we are still confused about which deception they are trying to employ), we should not choose one direction or other of that head-fake until we have more information. But I'll leave it as is; an edit war over a stub does seem absurd. :) -- Sethant (talk) 18:01, January 31, 2020 (UTC)

I don't see any basis for classifying her as a Romulan in the episode. She appears to be working with the Romulans to combat the synths. As a Vulcan she might harbor the same ancient mistrust of synths that the Zhat Vash have especially given the attack on Mars. Even the Ready Room make-up scene isn't evidence since Vulcan and Romula physiology is similar and there make-up would be similar too. Even if it was I don't think the after show would be enough evidence. Saying she's a Romulan is pure speculation. Le Sénéchal (talk) 20:30, February 2, 2020 (UTC)

• Maybe her wearing sunglasses in the latest episode is an subtle hint to the fact that she doesn't have the Vulcan inner eye lids, and is in fact a Romulan posing as a Vulcan.

"The End is the Beginning"

Episode 3 confirms she's at least posing as a Vulcan. How about a compromise and label her species as Vulcanoid until we know for sure? – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cryptic47 (talk • contribs).

No such thing as a Vulcanoid, so don't bother starting with that crap. --Alan (talk) 20:34, February 6, 2020 (UTC)

It's used in memory Beta for any humanoid that had Vulcan traits such as Romulans and Mintakans. It doesn't have to be used in canon as the term makes as much sense as humanoid which means we don't know what species she is for sure but she has Vulcan traits. Makes more sense than labeling her a Romulan, we don't know that she's Romulan but you accept that crap labeling her as such. Cryptic47 (talk) 21:55, February 6, 2020 (UTC)

So yeah. You got nothing. --Alan (talk) 01:47, February 7, 2020 (UTC)

Well she is Vulcanoid, we don't know that she's Romulan, yet the page says she's Romulan. So I have more than you. You seem awfully rude and biased for an admin. Because l got Vulcanoid's use in Beta mixed up with Alpha you call it a crap idea instead of politely rejecting it. Admin power really goes to people's heads I guess. So why exactly does her page say Romulan when it hasn't been established in canon? It's purely CONJECTURE. Cryptic47 (talk) 02:40, February 7, 2020 (UTC)

Isn't Memory Beta for non canon Star Trek information? Mseay222 (talk) 02:40, February 7, 2020 (UTC)

As I indicated, I remembered wrong that it was used in Memory Alpha. The Alpha version which links to Beta's Vulcanoid page is the page Proto Vulcan Humanoid, which refers to Vulcans and Romulans as Vulcan Humanoids. So then we should list Oh as Vulcan Humanoid then. And if everyone is being sticklers with canon, then why is Oh listed as a Romulan when canon hasn't confirmed that. Again, seems biased. Cryptic47 (talk) 02:56, February 7, 2020 (UTC)

I must say that based on the on-screen evidence only, it is speculative to say definitively that she's a Romulan, and not just a Vulcan traitor. (On the other hand, the editing of the "Previously on..." bit in "The End is the Beginning" would seem to support her Zhat Vash affiliation.)

We now have explicit confirmation that as far as Picard (and, presumably, Starfleet at large) knows, she's Vulcan. Would it make sense to say something like "Publicly known as Vulcan, possibly secretly Romulan"? Or Sethant's "Vulcan or Romulan". —Josiah Rowe (talk) 03:20, February 7, 2020 (UTC)

*sigh* As stated last week, Romulan comes from a valid source, which is by definition the MA opposite of conjecture. Meanwhile, drawing a line from Proto-Vulcan humanoid to this is overcomplicating the process. --Alan (talk) 03:38, February 7, 2020 (UTC)

Shouldn't this source be stated on the page? And I thought Memory Alpha adhered to CBS' canon policy that the only source that mattered is appearing on screen in an episode or film? Please tell me your source isn't the editing in the Ready Room episode about the makeup as some others are citing. Cryptic47 (talk) 03:55, February 7, 2020 (UTC)

See MA:CANON and MA:RESOURCE. -- Renegade54 (talk) 04:07, February 7, 2020 (UTC)

You all can keep debating bad ways of addressing this, to say nothing of giving way too much credit to CBS for a consistent "canon" policy, but I updated the page in the way that the resource policy suggests when we have questionable information. This should be fine for this week, until next week comes along and everything we know is wrong again! If any other pages refer to her by a species, we might as well remove that info for now since the show wants us to know she isn't on the level but also wants to play coy with her allegiances. - Archduk3 06:55, February 7, 2020 (UTC)

"Nepenthe"

So, are Romulans capable of mind melds now, or is Oh actually Vulcan? --TimPendragon (talk) 07:02, March 6, 2020 (UTC)

In Alex Kurtzman's Star Trek, I'm going with the former. - Archduk3 17:44, March 6, 2020 (UTC)

At least some Vulcans are not above working with or for Romulans. 31dot (talk) 17:52, March 6, 2020 (UTC)

True, but where did those visions in the mind meld come from? Either the Zhat Vash have a thing that produces them, or the info comes from mind melds passed down. Maybe from the 'Southern Romulans" who look so much like the Vulcans. Could be any number of things based on what we "know", or some other stuff we don't know about at all yet. We assume the Zhat Vash are Romulan since we learn of them from Romulans that were in a Romulan organization, but they could be Vulcans too. Maybe it was always Vulcans? New Star Trek loves to make Vulcans assholes, so that tracks. The creators were playing coy with Oh's species at one point, and we have plenty of reasons to doubt in the show itself, so I'm opposed to the ambiguity being removed from, or a definitive statement being forced onto, this page just to make some people comfortable until we actually have some answers. We already list her as a Vulcan, just like we listed her as a Romulan at one point when that was the most likely thing, so why can't we wait a week or two more to have the "whole" story before pushing an agenda? Is there some reason these things seem to happen a week before the episode that teases the answer? - Archduk3 19:04, March 6, 2020 (UTC)

There was never ambiguity as to her species, she is and has always been portrayed as a Vulcan working with Romulans. Le Sénéchal (talk)

Make-up error

The {{bginfo}} embed in the history section is misleading. As seen here, a shot from the episode was erroneously cut into discussion about Romulan make-up. There's nothing that directly establishes Oh's make-up as Romulan. Full context at [1]. —Scott (message me) 15:09, March 7, 2020 (UTC)

I believe you are correct. The only reference to Oh in TRR: "Maps and Legends" is a one-second clip of the character, during a section where a makeup artist describes the use of eyebrow transfers on Romulan characters "to give them that classic Romulan brow". It's not explicitly stated that Oh's eyebrows are Romulan, and Vulcans have the same type of eyebrows. A Vulcan would wear the same eyebrow transfers being described in the section her image is used to illustrate, and the image is of Oh as a Vulcan (either an actual Vulcan or passing as one, but either way, Vulcan eyebrows). In other words, I don't think TRR: "Maps and Legends" is a definitive source that her makeup is Romulan, and the only way it could be inferred as Romulan is functionally identical to if it were Vulcan, so such a statement would not be hugely meaningful. BeardWizard (talk) 09:09, March 8, 2020 (UTC)

"Broken Pieces"

...and now she's a Romulan again, or at least half a Romulan since she did that "oh" so Vulcan mind meld. Guess that lack of ambiguity in her species is just poor writing then. At least we know the editors of TRR didn't make a mistake, but maybe there are some other contortions people would like to try? - Archduk3 07:20, March 12, 2020 (UTC)

We finally have an answer that fits all the facts, and an official one at that, so there shouldn't be any more "contortions" of anything. --TimPendragon (talk) 06:43, March 13, 2020 (UTC)

"Et in Arcadia Ego"

The fact that she is shown leading a fleet of ROMULAN warships should be enough proof that, at the very least, she regards herself to be more Romulan, and that her true loyalties lie with them, and not the Federation! (By the way, her lack of brow ridges could indicate that any Romulan parent/ancestor was a Southern Romulan). SeniramUK (talk) 18:01, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

Rename

Since we have her "real" name, whatever that means for Romulans now, we should have the page there. Oh will remain a redirect and alias. - Archduk3 13:49, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

That would be the most consistent way of doing it. People will definitely still be looking for "Oh." When in the episode was "Nedar" mentioned? I must have missed hearing it with everything else going on. --TimPendragon (talk)

In the CC.--Memphis77 (talk) 15:32, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

Really? Wow. The inconsistency in which closed captioning is considered either authoritative or non-probative on this wiki is enough to give me whiplash. --TimPendragon (talk) 15:49, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

Which gives weight to my opinion that closed captioning should be left to the writers, through whose fingers the words in question traveled several times, not to any third party group where the assignment would be extremely lucky to fall to a fan. Jolan tru, knoodelhed (talk) 17:48, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

If that is the only source for the name, then it shouldn't be included at all. I just figured I missed it when I watched the episode. - Archduk3 14:52, March 28, 2020 (UTC)

Per Michael Chabon's Tweet, the intent was that Nedar was her real :name, and Oh was her sleeper agent name. --WTRiker (talk) 05:04, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

If that name wasn't used in dialogue (& I don't remember it being used), then I wouldn't use it as the title for this page. 67.182.114.157 07:32, March 30, 2020 (UTC)

I'm removing the merge tag. --Alan (talk) 17:38, April 1, 2020 (UTC)

Category:Double agents

Pity this is not an available category. There are some characters who would qualify. knoodelhed (talk) 17:21, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

You might try suggesting it, through this process. --TimPendragon (talk) 06:13, March 28, 2020 (UTC)