Talk: Phase cannon

FA nomination (17 Jul - 24 Jul 2006, Successful)[]

A self-nomination of sorts, although many others have contributed to its improvement. This article has everything that is required – a complete write-up of how and when the cannons are used, the right amount of images, and a hearty (though recently trimmed) background section. Also, the text flows smoothly from one point to the next, IMO, so it should keep a reader's interest in the article throughout. This is pretty much "my baby", "my pride & joy" – I worked on it for a few months, reviewing episodes of all four seasons of Star Trek: Enterprise and keeping close tabs of every bit of info about the cannons. And I think it turned out pretty darn good. :) --From Andoria with Love 09:05, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Support. Very well done! An excellent read, very detailed, very informative. Ottens 09:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Support. Well researched, great examples, good background info on the installation ('appearance') of random cannons. And it's long without being annoyingly wordy, which is what I prefer in things like major characters or major components. I'm also looking into some things for the background section, which I'll add if I can find, but very nice. - AJ Halliwell 10:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Comment. Alhough detailed and to the point, I feel that the majority of this article is about the phase cannons of the Enterprise and not the phase cannons themselves. Just my observation. -- Q 18:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Umm... since the only phase cannons primarily shown were those of the Enterprise, what else would we use to show examples of what the cannons were used for and how they are used? After all, phase cannons are phase cannons. ;) (For the record, only two ships were shown to use phase cannons – the Enterprise and the Columbia. Other starships had phase cannon-like beams, but since those weren't specifically referred to as phase cannons, we can't assume that they are, especially since, as the background points out, the shuttlepods used similar beams but those were specifically referred to as plasma cannons.) --From Andoria with Love 23:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I knew you were gone to say that :) Yes, the Enterprise and Columbia were the only two known starships with phase cannons and it is unknown if there were any other ships fitted with this weapon. The accent of the article is about the Enterprise, for the History part that's oke, but the more generic part could be about the NX-class ship. As the Columbia was also fitted with phase cannons. Such as ' The cannons were mounted on retractable turrets which extended from... ' might be ' On NX-class starships the cannons were mounted on retractable turrets which extended from... '. The same goes for the positioning of the phase cannons themselves and some other information which is now linked to the Enterprise but also could linked to the NX-class starships. Although unknown if other Starfleet ships had those weapons, I don't think it's a problem to suggest there were more ships but unknown to us. Keep in mind that this is only nitpicking from my side, so please ignore if appropriate ;-) -- Q 17:16, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, especially since we have two ships of the same class that both have the same weapon. We have decided on the stats of the whole Prometheus class based on the appearance of a single ship. We should do the same with phase canons and NX, since we have two ships (more if you count the mirror universe ships) of the class with the same info. It should be OK to say that the rest of the class is the same. --OuroborosCobra ^talk 17:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I see... well, feel free to edit the article to the way you described if I don't get to it. This is a collaborative effort, after all. ;) --From Andoria with Love 03:26, 19 July 2006 (UTC) Then again, you must also consider the possibility (and likelihood) that the Enterprise and Columbia may have had their cannons configured differently, especially since Columbia was launched over three years after Enterprise, so tread carefully. --From Andoria with Love 03:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Still waiting for those modifications you had planned, Q. ;) --From Andoria with Love 03:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- gee, whats you hurry. It's far to nice weather to sit behind a computer ;-) I did made some changes, hopefully they fit, if not, well.. -- Q 10:32, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Support. --Bp 05:28, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Support. Hells yeah! --OuroborosCobra ^talk 06:00, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Support. Nice read, and seems to be very complete. Good work :) -- Cid Highwind 10:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Support. Looks good! -- Renegade54 11:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

3 phase cannons?[]

The ship started with 3 retro-fitted phase cannons by Tucker in the 1st season, but by the 3rd season it was heavily refitted with at least 10 in 12 visually verifiable ports, but the total of 12 is the most logical assumption. Watch 3rd season episode E^2 for reference, and don't rely on heresay and faulty memory. --Atrahasis 19:04, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Please keep your attitude in check. As I recall, that ship was over 100 years older than the standard NX class, and should be considered an exception to the rule (after decades of modification-- for survival) not the rule. --Alan del Beccio 19:12, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Pleaae keep your attitude in check. Review the episode and you'll find that I'm not talking about the 100 year old one, but the contemporary one. --Atrahasis 19:22, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)

I removed:

"Visual inspection of the ship reveals twelve ports from which phase cannons seem to be mounted, with the NX-01 having fired from at least ten of those twelve ports throught the run of the series. The basic configuration by the third season is eight cannons mounted forward on the top/bottom of the saucer and four cannons mounted top/bottom on the souble catamaran hull. Note that this was a major modification of the orinal three cannons. (ENT: "E²")"

Obviously, Atrahasis is confusing the ship's plasma cannons seen in "Broken Bow" with the phase cannons located on the ship's ventral section. Remember, the ship does have other weapons besides phase cannons. Also, because we don't know for sure if those were phase cannons that were added during the ship's refit, calling them either phase cannons or plasma cannons would be purely speculation. --From Andoria with Love 19:16, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)

If you think about it, assuming it has only 3 phase cannons by season 3 is speculation, because at no time during the E^2 episode is "plasma cannon" mentioned but it is always phase cannons. Is "plasma cannon" even mentioned to be on the ship after early season 1? I don't think it is. Even the wiki article about plasma cannons that you link to says the ship's weapons were eventually upgraded from the plasmas which were "pop gun" weapons to the more advanced phase cannons whcih is the characteristic orange beam which is the only kind of beam the E fires. --Atrahasis 19:25, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)

"It is unknown whether the NX-01's weapons fire seen in "E2" were phase cannons or the ship's plasma weapons seen earlier. If they were phase cannons, then several new phase cannons were added previously, likely during the refit prior to the search for the Xindi weapon."

This reference is being dodgy, because one can reasonably assume that all of those beams firing in E2 from the NX-01 were not plasma cannons because that weapon had not been mentioned for more than 2 years of the show, and moreover they were all the characteristic orange beam of the phase cannon. --Atrahasis 19:34, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the name for those weapons were never mentioned, but were seen in "Broken Bow", before they were outfitted with phase cannons in "Silent Enemy". Also, we don't care what Wikipedia says - we rely on factual canon information here. Nowhere did it say in the series that the so-called "pop gun" weapons converted to phase cannons. --From Andoria with Love 19:36, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)

The plasma weapons in "Broken Bow" also had a yellow beam, if I'm not mistaken. --From Andoria with Love 19:37, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't referencing Wikipedia, I was referencing the link you gave me. If you so believe with all your heart that all of those extra ports were still plasma cannons by the third season, answer me this: Why is the term plasma cannon with reference to them being on the E not used after the first season? --Atrahasis 19:41, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Also, try to answer me this: If Tucker could FABRICATE and FIT three whole phase cannons on the ship during a mission in 48 hrs (or however long it was) in the first season, are you telling me that the ship could not be refitted with all phase cannons in a drydock by season 3? Remember, the ship was originally supposed to recieve phase cannons, presumably in place of the plasma cannons, as the main weaponry (the secondary weaponry allegedly being lasers). But the ship was rushed into its voyage, and the plasma cannon solution seems to have been a second-choice no-alternative rush-job even then. --Atrahasis 19:51, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)

The fact of the matter is, before gaining phase cannons, Enterprise utilized another form of weapon, likely plasma, as seen in "Broken Bow". In "Silent Enemy", we learn the Enterprise was DESIGNED to carry three phase cannons. Whether every single one of the energy shots seen in "E2" are phase cannons or are the weapons seen in "Brokwn Bow" is up for debate, and either answer is pure speculation. And if another wiki page says the ship was updated with more phase cannons, it is likely speculation and should be fixed. Also, because you did not have the courtesy to resolve this issue here before re-editing the article, I have protected it to prevent an edit war. --From Andoria with Love 19:52, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)

There is a plethora of evidence to indicate the ship was majorly upgraded by season 3 if not earlier. Remember Archer advised Starfleet to up the weapons for the Columbia, and for some reason I don't think plasma cannons were on the table, as they are JUST NOT MENTIONED and of course they are obsolete, even by the time of the E's first year voyage. Unless this hypothetical wildly speculative "secondary beam weapons system" that you're proposing has a name or a reference and there is evidence that it still exists by season 3, I find your specualtion to be illogical. The phase cannon defnitely by season three just comes across as the default beam system and moreover there is no mention of a secondary beam system that you so want to exist. --Atrahasis 20:09, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)

"Archer announces that he has confidence in the engineering team, and he doesn't feel the need to return to Jupiter base to complete the weapons install. "

This implies that in addition to the three initial phase cannons installed by Tucker, there was room for more. Besides, that single aft cannon is located on the STARBOARD AFT side, ventral...making the ship lopsided. Lopsidedness in design (especially when it comes to weapons) is just not a Starfleet way of designing things as far as I know. --Atrahasis 20:15, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)

The key word there, my friend, is implies. What is implied to you may not be implied to others, especially in a speculatory scenario like the one you have provided above. For the last time, what you are suggesting is speculation, which is not what we're looking for; we're looking for hard, solid, unarguably canon evidence. --From Andoria with Love 20:36, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)

OK, I haven't read the whole edit war history of this article yet, and don't have the episode(s) to check, but regardless of anything else, it is correct that only "canon" facts should be presented as such in the main article body. Unless someone said that "Enterprise is equipped with X phase cannons", we shouldn't simply "assume" it. However, the paragraph that was added by Atrahasis seems to be a valid background information, so my suggestion would be to revert to this version, where that piece of information was moved to the appropriate section by Alan. -- Cid Highwind 22:16, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)

I went ahead and re-added his info, but I integrated it into my own paragraph so readers do not get the idea that they were 100% certainly phase cannons. --From Andoria with Love 22:49, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)

May I just say that it is not the best idea to continue editing the protected page? It might be better to discuss any possible compromise here, first, so that both Atrahasis and you can live with it. -- Cid Highwind 22:54, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm running on less than four hours of sleep so I'm not thinking straight. I won't edit the page any further until it's been unprotected. In the meantime, the edit has been made, so I guess all that is left is for Artrahasis to comment on what was done. If he doesn't like it (for a reasonable reason, of course), then we'll discuss the issue further here. If he does, then all's good. :) --From Andoria with Love 22:58, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Oh come now, I'm sure he will love it. I would, however, like to interject the line that states, quite clearly, that "Enterprise was designed to carry three of them." -- "of them" being the phase cannons. Designed meaning "the working plan", in this case, for Enterprise is that is was drawn out to carry three cannons. It seems to me that that cold hard fact seems to overrule the implied, read-between-the-lines statement referenced above. Also, is it really all that accurate to say: "...from at least ten of those twelve ports throughout the run of the series," when it seems only one episode is being referenced in this entire conversation? Otherwise, I think what is written there now is a fair and appropriate compromise. --Alan del Beccio 23:29, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Atrahasis doesn't seem to be returning... would it be okay to unprotect this now? --From Andoria with Love 05:07, 27 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Images[]

I think I went a tad overboard with some of the pics... Would anyone be against my removing the images of the cannons firing on the sphere portal and blowing off C12's hatch? --From Andoria with Love 02:13, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Alrighty, I'll go ahead and remove those, then. :) --From Andoria with Love 23:04, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Peer review[]

Okay, the article is basically complete but before I nominated it for featured status, I wanna make sure it's top-notch. Basically, I'm looking for comments, opinions, and suggestions for the page. Is it too long (meaning, can it be trimmed down without harming the content or info)? Are there not enough images? Are there any errors? I can't find anything wrong, but then again, I wrote most of it, so I'm biased. Look it over and fill me in, will ya? --From Andoria with Love 08:47, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Nobody has anything to say? Questions? Comments? Obscenities? --From Andoria with Love 09:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Speculatory paragraphs[]

I wanted to get some feedback on the following paragraphs which I wrote in the background section. When I wrote it, I felt it would be useful to understand the possible reasons why certain contradictions may exist. Now, however, I think it may be a bit heavy on the speculation side. I'm placing it here for discussion and ask for suggestions as to what to do with it. (remove it? reword it? shorten it? leave it?) As far as I'm concerned, this is all part of the peer review process, but since there's been no response there, and since it's better suited for discussion here, here is where I bring it up. For the record, in order to understand entirely what the below is discussing, you may have to read the few paragraphs in the bg section that came before it. Enjoy.

"A possible explanation for the apparent contradictions listed above is that energy from the original phase cannons had been somehow redirected as needed to other ports across the ship which were not initially designed for such a use, therefore effectively giving the ship more phase cannon ports. Thus, because the energy would be drawn from the original cannons, when those cannons are knocked out, the rest of the ports would become useless as well. This would explain why the ship had to go straight for the torpedoes when two cannons were knocked out and why there are only two front cannons and at times only one aft cannon referenced in dialogue. Again, this is merely speculation meant to offer a possible explanation and is not canon. Also, it doesn't explain why some beams were clearly seen coming from rotating phase cannons located on the far bow of the ship's ventral (in front of the originally-installed forward cannons) in "Storm Front, Part II", although we can assume they were installed sometime between "The Forgotten" (when there were apparently only two forward cannons) and "Storm Front". Another, less complex, explanation for the contradictions is that each of the original cannons had the ability to travel from one location of the ship to the other (for example, from the bow to the aft or from dorsal to ventral) along their assigned ports. Again, this is only speculation."

"Spock's remark in TOS: "Balance of Terror" that the Earth-Romulan War was fought with atomic weapons suggests that the phase cannon and other phase weapons may have utilized a form of atomic energy, assuming, of course, that the weapons were used during the war. However, because an overload of the phase cannon's phase modulators caused a plasma recoil, it seems likely the weapons are operated on plasma. It is possible that Spock's comment did not mean the war was fought entirely with atomic weapons, although that may have been the primary weapon employed during the conflict (i.e., spatial torpedoes)."

--From Andoria with Love 15:27, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Information on phase cannons or the NX-01 weapons refit history?[]

As noted before by Q two years ago, this article seems to sidetrack and dive deep into the weapons refit history of the NX-01 prototype in intense detail. Much of that hasn't really got anything relevant to say about what a phase cannon is, even though it is part of the known history of the uses of this weapon type, I suggest much of the text detailing the installations of new cannons and such would better fit in the NX-class article tactical systems subsection where such things are usually noted in MA. Keep this article more about notes on what the cannon is and what it can do. --Pseudohuman 03:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

My reply to Q's comment from two years ago still stands. Besides, Q already made the changes he discussed. I really don't see how the article sidetracks at all, and most others apparently didn't either since it became a featured article. Everything in the article is about the phase cannon, and all info on the phase cannon belongs on the phase cannon page. Having said that, however, could you point out specific areas of the article you think need to be changed or removed? --From Andoria with Love 07:41, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong this is an insightful article, but as a comparison phaser and torpedo pages etc don't discuss specific tactical arrangements of any particular shiptype in any detail, thats what the tactical systems subsections are for on the shiptype articles, even though it would be related information. We don't count the locations of new torpedo launchers of the Sovereign-class ship on the torpedo launcher page even though that is torpedo launcher history. See my point? --Pseudohuman 10:06, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Ahh, so you're specifically referring to the paragraphs describing the locations of the various phase cannons over the years? I can see you're point there, I suppose. I'm not particularly sure it needs to be moved, though... but then again, maybe I'm just biased. :/ --From Andoria with Love 12:36, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

So... instead of slimming this article down... why not expand the others? -- Sulfur 14:07, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The information on the positioning of the NX class phase cannons does have a place on the NX class page, but it also goes to demonstrate the increasing use of the technology, and the varied placement of the weapons, so has a place here as well. ~~I would add the deployment of the technology on other Earth Starfleet ships, though.~~ Scratch that bit, I see what Shran wrote in the section above. -- Michael Warren | Talk 14:16, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Gigajoules?[]

Joules are a unit of energy, not power. Is this just a mistake on the writers' part or did they mean gigawatts?

They said gigajoules, we write gigajoules. You'd have to ask the writers if they meant watts. --OuroborosCobra ^talk 23:07, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

In TNG they consistently refer to "watts" as a unit of energy. Mike Okuda suggested that "watts" is synonymous with "watt-hours" by that time in the future; where they frequently deal with much larger energies. Eg. The Husnock ship's 40MW and 400GW of energy - ie. corresponding to 144 gigajoule and 1,440 terajoule, respectively.

Yield?[]

Disregarding whether the GJ is the right unit, why does the article say that they had a maximum power output of 500GJ, and then in the next paragraph, say that they have a maximum power output of 80 GJ?

However, I have a possible explanation. Since the 80GJ figure comes from "Cogenitor", is it possible that Reed lied to the Vissidians? Giving false information to a race you don't completely trust is nothing new, after all. --Wolf of Thor (talk) 22:17, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

There is no contradiction there. They are two completely different figures. The phase cannon assembly as a device was rated to be able to produce a maximum output of 500 GJ (Silent Enemy). When they were powered only by the Enterprise impulse engine, the cannons were able to produce particle beam bursts that only had an impact yield of 80 GJ = equivalent to a 19 ton TNT explosion. (Cogenitor) [1]. Drawing power directly from the impulse engines increased the impact yield by 80-percent (Horizon), so initially it was even less than 80 GJ. The impact yield is in my interpretation related to the power source from where a cannon draws it's power from. So 6 or 7 impulse reactors feeding power to a cannon, would give it enough power to produce it's maximum yield beams of 500 GJ. --Pseudohuman (talk) 19:51, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

Travis claims Reed updated the phase cannon's output by 60% (ie. 800 gigajoules up from 500 gigajoules) so it's quite possible the 80 gigajoule value was a script error