A page on uncited quotations in Star Trek

This idea comes out of a deletion discussion from a while back, the most recent (and maybe last ;)) in a series of similar discussions. The problem: there have been a number of occasions where characters said something that we recognize as being a quotation from somewhere, but this is not acknowledged in-universe. This leaves it unclear if the character actually meant to quote the work, and if this this means the source is canon, or if the writer is merely borrowing a good phrase to be put in the mouth of their character.

This has resulted in some lengthy discussions, difficult issues which I think this page could basically sidestep. The solution: a real world article, the title something like "Quotations in Star Trek", which fulfills a similar function to Popular culture references in Star Trek and in fact can be seen as a companion page to it. It would contain a list of instances where a quote from wider culture was re-purposed in Star Trek, with no judgement on the implications of this use, while at the same time the real world format allows us to point out the original source.

The list would initially be fairly short, I count about 7 references that I can personally think of, and I doubt it will ever be a 100-item list, but I'm sure some more will show up in time. The main advantage of the page as I see it is that we would now have a clear, unambiguous, and logical way for dealing with this kind of information.

Two additional notes: 1) Shakespearean works and Biblical references to some extent perform functions similar to this new page. However, these pages work fine as they are so I think it would be best to leave these two categories of quotes handled the way they are, though linked from new page as a sort of unofficial subpages. 2) Also, the page would change nothing regarding Douglas MacArthur, because even though he was unnamed, he was alluded to as the originator of the quote. -- Capricorn (talk) 02:11, March 30, 2018 (UTC)

As I have said before in the discussion you reference, I am all for this (or something of this nature). :) --LauraCC (talk) 16:04, March 31, 2018 (UTC)
I too would support such a page as long as it is done properly, i.e. just listing the lines of dialogue and what they allude to, and nothing more. It would be very easy for this to turn into a page of original research. Of course, properly cited production commentary would be OK though. --| TrekFan Open a channel 20:29, March 31, 2018 (UTC)

Treating the quotes properly isn't just a central goal for the page, my whole hope is that having this page will prevent future issues like the ones you describe by encouraging people to simply add new quotes to a list of them being done right. :) -- Capricorn (talk) 22:30, April 1, 2018 (UTC)

I agree with you. It's a good idea. Just needs caution to prevent it becoming an essay type page that looks into to why's and what-for's. I'm all for it. --| TrekFan Open a channel 02:47, April 2, 2018 (UTC)
We should have a realworld section for this too. Last night, while reading Laura Frantz's "The Lacemaker", I came upon the George Washington quote that gives its title to "The Shocks of Adversity" - "True friendship is a plant of slow growth, and must undergo and withstand the shocks of adversity, before it is entitled to the appellation." --LauraCC (talk) 15:27, April 5, 2018 (UTC)
See also here: [1] --LauraCC (talk) 15:32, April 14, 2018 (UTC)

This took me longer then I'd hoped, but I present to you Quotations in Star Trek. I personally think it turned out very nice.
Laura, sorry for taking so long to answer, but regarding your suggestion: I haven't implemented it yet because I personally don't know of any examples or how exactly this would work out. But that doesn't mean I'm opposed to it. Maybe you ought to make sure you have a few more examples, to see if it is worth having, but if you have a vision, I'd suggest you to be bold. -- Capricorn (talk) 13:04, April 19, 2018 (UTC)

Title quotes

Should (do?) quotes used in titles (never spoken by characters in-universe) go in this page's background info section? --LauraCC (talk) 15:49, March 18, 2019 (UTC)

Sure --Alan (talk) 13:05, March 19, 2019 (UTC)
Yeah it's not exactly something the page was designed to do, but I don't see why there couldn't be a list of those. -- Capricorn (talk) 22:10, March 19, 2019 (UTC)

A problem

A significant problem with this page is the MA:POV. We are acknowledging these quotes, but completely ignoring their value from the in-universe point of view. I almost think this would be better off intermingled with the quotation page itself (since, it somehow doesn't make sense for us to be able to identify a song purely by its instrumental accompaniment, or by it's lyrics (aka it's words), but not a piece of literature by a quotation, or you know, by the same criteria (aka it's words)). --Alan (talk) 13:14, April 3, 2019 (UTC)

The problem this page was meant to address is that we don't know if in their mind the character is actually quoting the work, or if the episode's writer is just borrowing the quote to put in their characters mouth. For example, Nog might actually have been quoting the communist manifesto in "Bar Association", or the writers might have just had a bit of fun without meaning to imply that Nog was into that stuff.
As such, I don't think quotation is a good target, because we don't really know these are quotations in-universe. The in-universe pov value of many of these quotes has been discussed ad nauseam, often in deletion discussions with inconsistent outcomes, and this article means to sidestep all that. So re-integrating this stuff into the in-universe part of the wiki would not only open all that up again, but would also go against the outcome of a number of deletion discussions. This page admittedly represents a bit of brinkmanship, but I'm not sure which exact aspect of MA:POV it is violating. To me it seems like it simply takes information which is interesting but was found to be a problematic fit for in-universe pov, and presents it in a real world pov instead. -- Capricorn (talk) 08:35, April 4, 2019 (UTC)

And as usual, the points I made as blatantly as one could are ignored, and addressed, as usual, with speculation. --Alan (talk) 12:01, April 4, 2019 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure I addressed some points in your post, I can only guess that they were not the ones you thought key. "Guess" being the word here, because your answer does everything it accuses me of. I don't know what to do with this today: I don't dislike you, and mostly I respect you even though we have very different approaches, but when most editors think they've been misunderstood, they try to fix that rather then berate. You believe I'm missing some point (which could be the case) and your reflex is to to try to shoo away instead of ever trying to explain. I've had a long day and I just don't have the energy to try to get something better out of you. Which makes this post as useless to a discussion as yours above, but so be it. I guess in the end you'll conclude that since you're the only one that understood what you were proposing, there is consensus for going through with it. And it will probably turn out pretty decent, if you don't consider the ignored points on your side. At least you didn't also address the points you ignored, as you accuse me of doing. -- Capricorn (talk) 16:18, April 4, 2019 (UTC)
Whether or not something can be considered a quote if by the 22nd-24th centuries it has entered the vernacular, stripped of most context except to those in the know, which may or may not include those "quoting" or "paraphrasing" it, is unknown. --LauraCC (talk) 16:22, April 8, 2019 (UTC)

Quote from The Squire of Gothos

In "The Squire of Gothos", Trelane says, "Is this the face that launched a thousand ships and burnt the topless towers of Ilium? Fair Helen, make me immortal with a kiss."

This quote is similar to lines spoken in Christopher Marlowe's Dr. Faustus - "Was this the face that launch’d a thousand ships, And burnt the topless towers of Ilium?— Sweet Helen, make me immortal with a kiss." http://www.lem.seed.pr.gov.br/arquivos/File/livrosliteraturaingles/faustus.pdf

I thought this might be of interest to the editors of Memory Alpha.-- 03:11, September 15, 2019 (UTC)

Yes, thank you. I will add that to this page. —Josiah Rowe (talk) 01:09, September 16, 2019 (UTC)

FYI: "Absolute power corrupts absolutely"

This is the second part of a quote from Lord Acton in 1887. The full sentence reads, "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." [2]

There are variations of the quote spoken by characters from the episodes "Where No Man Has Gone Before", "Patterns of Force", and "Hide and Q".-- 08:49, October 21, 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for another great tip, will incorporate. Have you considered creating a username? -- Capricorn (talk) 08:33, October 22, 2019 (UTC)
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