Talk: Romulus (star)

Romulan supernova

The term "Romulan supernova" is used in PIC: "Remembrance", and since most of this article concerns that event, maybe it would be best to have a separate article for it? - Mitchz95 (talk) 23:55, January 26, 2020 (UTC)

No. That would be like having an extra article for the death of Data or Yar or Jadzia... --Alan (talk) 01:03, January 27, 2020 (UTC)

A solar system being destroyed is a much bigger deal than a character death. And wouldn't it be better, in terms of accessibility, to have the supernova stuff on a dedicated page rather than being shoved into an article about a star? 90% of this article is about the event, not the star. - Mitchz95 (talk) 01:13, January 27, 2020 (UTC)

That is a completely subjective statement is the scope of this project. But if you take a closer look of that 90%, 90% of that 90% is about the preparation for the supernova, not the event itself or the star, for that matter. It's all part of the "history" of the star, but moreso the demise of the bulk of the Romulan people --Alan (talk) 01:34, January 27, 2020 (UTC)

I still disagree. If the bulk of the article is about the supernova and the events leading up to it, then it should be a "historical" page rather than a page about the star itself. We do have a category for events, after all. And again, I think it'd be better in terms of readability to have most of the supernova stuff on its own dedicated page, especially since we have a name from canon: "the Romulan supernova". - Mitchz95 (talk) 02:33, January 27, 2020 (UTC)

I am with Alan on this one. This page is about the "individual" (the star) and its "life" which ended in a "death" (supernova).--Memphis77 (talk) 04:15, January 27, 2020 (UTC)

A redirect to this page categorized under history/events covers the "need" for a separate page that more or less would just duplicate this one. - Archduk3 04:20, January 27, 2020 (UTC)

Romulan sun

One thing I have an issue with here, is that we are treating this like it is the same sun that Romulus and Remus orbit. Why is that? In Star Trek, Spock tried to stop the supernova, and he said "the unthinkable happened. Romulus was destroyed." or something to that effect.

My question is, how would that have been "unthinkable" exactly? If the star that Romulus orbited went supernova...wouldn't the first thought be...oh yeah, Romulus is doomed. Duh, right? I mean, how unthinkable is that? This implies that it was a different star. Even though we know the comics are not canon, the Star Trek film certainly is, so that being said, if it were Romulus and Remus' star that went supernova. It's not that "unthinkable," but quite inevitable instead.

There's a couple of things we have to look at here. The Picard show called the the star that went supernova the Romulan sun, non-canon sources called it Hobus...it was never Hobus in the prime timeline of course I know, because that's non-canon. But it's called the Romulan sun. That's the best name we have in canon for now. But...how many Romulan suns are there? Sure, many of you might be quick to say, just one, the Romulan system is a not a binary star system, so only one; that much you'd have correct. But think again...the word Romulan could refer to the Romulan Empire as a whole, and we know that there are multiple suns within the Empire. So "Romulan sun" could be any sun within their interstellar empire.

One other thing that needs to be considered here, is that it was a reporter, not an astronomer or Starfleet officer that called the star the Romulan sun. A woman who I might add, didn't even know what Dunkirk is. A woman who clearly knew little about history or anything relevant to the subject of the Romulan Empire. To turn it around, if someone in the Romulan Empire was referring to a star in the Federation going supernova, if they were as stupid as her, they too may refer to it as a "Federation sun." As silly as their nickname for it might be, it wouldn't be inaccurate, because if it is a sun within Federation space, it still would be a Federation sun,

An example, Canopus Planet. What is that? Well, from what we can gather by the name, it's a planet within the Canopus system. It could be Canopus III or any other, but we have no real way of knowing because we weren't given enough information. Gary Mitchell mentioned the place in passing, In a similar way we nowadays would mention some random place. "Yeah, I was driving down the highway when all of the sudden my car broke down in a little Chicago suburb." I redlinked this, not so that someone would make that into a page, but so that you can see the similarities in the terms. Canopus Planet is a page kinda like that small Chicago suburb. Since we don't know it's name we can't rename it, and we have to stick with it. Since it was only mentioned in passing.

Back to the Romulan sun, at this point, that's what it is named, so we have to keep it that way, but since that name can have several meanings, I think that's something else that should be changed as well. Treating it as the primary of the Romulan system is a bit of stretch, considering we have the whole Romulan Empire to think about; and considering the source of the name was a clueless reporter. And considering what Spock had to say about the event when it actually happened. Thoughts?

--Noah Tall (talk) 23:57, January 28, 2020 (UTC)

EDIT: I also wanted to mention, that Spock using red matter would have been pointless, he may have been able to stop the supernova from consuming Romulus and Remus, but in turn, wouldn't the two planets eventually just get consumed by the black hole instead? That doesn't sound like a rescue mission to me!

--Noah Tall (talk) 00:11, January 29, 2020 (UTC)

I agree that Spock's red matter plan doesn't make sense in this context. Regardless, until and unless we learn more about the situation from the show, we're confined to what we're shown and told on-screen: 1) Romulus and Remus, at least, orbit a single sun (Star Trek Nemesis); 2) "The Romulan sun" went supernova in 2387 (Star Trek). Without direct on-screen evidence, assuming that the Romulan system has another star, or that "Romulan sun" doesn't refer to the sun that Romulus itself orbits, is speculation and would hurt the article. If someone said "the Human sun", we'd hardly be expected to assume they meant, say, Proxima Centauri. - Mitchz95 (talk) 01:27, January 29, 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, I'm not saying that we should try and guess which star it is, I'm simply saying that we shouldn't say that it is the same star that Romulus and Remus orbits, because that much has been confirmed in canon.

--Noah Tall (talk) 04:42, January 29, 2020 (UTC)

EDIT: I reread your post that I didn't understand the first time and thought I did. You mentioned someone outside of our space referring to a "Human sun." Then yes, I would be inclined to assume that they were talking about Earth's sun. But it would be different if we actually had a "Human Empire." See? Don't you see what I'm saying? This is where the flaw is. Some random woman who's never been to space, like that reporter probably doesn't even know the difference between a star system and a galaxy, but she knows that whatever sun went supernova, it was a danger to the Romulans, so she called it a Romulan sun. Which in itself, is accurate, especially if you don't have a name, after all it's in Romulan space. It's pretty straight forward to me. And making the necessary changes in the article isn't gonna hurt anything, but it actually will line up with other articles better, and make things make sense.

And believe me, this is not me just trying to rationalize anything by forcing it to fit into canon. Based on what we have seen and heard on screen, it is not the sun that Romulus and Remus orbits. It may turn out that eventually it is established in canon that you are right, but right now, that isn't the case. As I said, for now, nothing indicates that the Romulan sun is the sun from the Romulan system, apart from the dubious "name" itself. But as I said, that could be what she called it because she knew it was in the Romulan Empire. (where Romulans live!)

--Noah Tall (talk) 03:19, February 2, 2020 (UTC)

The fact that she used the word sun instead of star makes it pretty clear that she's talking about the one Romulus orbited, rather than another star in Romulan space. Otherwise, she'd have said "Romulan star" or, more likely, the actual name of the star. Until we know more, we should stick with that. Hopefully future episodes of Picard will add more context and clear this up. - Mitchz95 (talk) 23:38, February 3, 2020 (UTC)

It was established already in Star Trek) that it was 2387. Why does it seem to be that people are so interested in retconning that? That would just confuse matters more, giving us even another year it "might" have happened. After all, one episode or movie isn't more canon than another, they're all equal. We'd have ourselves another "when was Doctor Zefram Cochrane born anyway?" type of articles. That doesn't sound cool to me at all. Obviously, when Spock said his line, he said "129 years from now..." And let's face it, he could have meant, 128 and a half, or even 129 and a half for all we know, but does anyone feel like it has to be 2386 instead? I think, now that I'm thinking about it, it was April 5, 2385 when Attack on Mars happens. As I understand, that had a lot to do with the reason Starfleet had to withdraw, other than San Francisco Fleet Yards and a handful of others, Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards was one of the Federation's top ship builders, so that makes sense why they wouldn't have enough ships. But...we still have another two years before the supernova destroys Romulus and Remus.

So to me it seems that they would have had to have known about the supernova for two years, with whatever scanning equipment they had, which likely let them no it was going to go nova before it did. Still...does this mean Romulus had two years to evacuate? That seems like plenty of time for them to have done it by themselves without any help from the Federation. Of course one other possibility was that the supernova had already started and it had already started to wipe out much of the Romulan Empire, but it didn't reach Romulus until two years later, by then Starfleet would have pulled out long ago, leaving whoever else may have been unfortunate to still be there to die. My gut still tells me a lot of people would have been able to evacuate on time, with minimal casualties, at least in the Romulan system, since they'd have had two years. The only way I could see that not happening is if the Romulans too, like the Federation; also had a shortage of ships, and this being the case of course, many would have perished.

But anyway, yeah, the date doesn't matter, it still fits, what doesn't fit, is the Romulan sun actually being the same star that Romulus and Remus orbits. Everything I just said about them having two-years wouldn't have made sense. Anyway, that's all I can think of for now, the date doesn't matter, unless we get more light shined on the matter, but the star does matter. There's no way the so-called Romulan sun could be the primary of the Romulan system. It's clear it had to be a star in another solar system located within the Romulan Empire.

--Noah Tall (talk) 03:02, February 2, 2020 (UTC)

We can't speculate about what the Romulans could or couldn't accomplish on their own. All we know is what we were told, and that is that they couldn't complete the evacuation in time without Starfleet's help, and Starfleet chose not to rebuild the rescue fleet due to internal political pressure and strained resources. And again, absent further information, we have no choice but to interpret "Romulan sun" as exactly that: the sun that Romulus orbits. - Mitchz95 (talk) 16:26, February 2, 2020 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting we speculate anything, just bringing more information to the table, not trying to say that it needs put in the article. This whole article is based on nothing but speculation. And you keep on saying "absent further information..." even though I just gave you the information. You're just choosing article over the latter simply because you want to, or so it seems that way. Spock said that the supernova threatened the galaxy, and made it damn clear it wasn't the star Romulus orbits. Otherwise why would he be surprised? Plus his black hole would have sucked up Romulus eventually anyway.

--Noah Tall (talk) 23:28, February 6, 2020 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, the fact that Richter said "the Romulan sun" makes it pretty clear that she's talking about the specific star Romulus orbits. Otherwise, she'd have used either "a Romulan sun" or the actual name of the system. I will grant that Spock's plan doesn't make much sense under the current interpretation, which may be indicative of a retcon. I've added a note saying as much to the article, feel free to tweak it if you think you can word it better. For now, though, I still see no way around the fact that the supernova is the sun of Romulus. She wouldn't have used that specific terminology otherwise. If anyone else wants to chime in, I'd like to hear your opinions on the issue.

(Also, why is this under the "Supernova year revision" topic? Shouldn't it be under "Romulan sun" with the rest of this discussion?) - Mitchz95 (talk) 05:22, February 7, 2020 (UTC)

I do agree with you this much --- If someone said to me Romulan sun, my first thought was that they were referring to "the star that Romulus orbits." The problem is, Star Trek made it quite clear that it wasn't that star that went supernova. The comics don't matter because they aren't canon anyway; but they say the same thing. To assume this is retcon makes even less sense. As I said, the Romulan Empire has many suns. And no, an ordinary citizen of the Federation isn't necessarily going to distinguish it from other stars in the Empire. I disagree. That's speculation.

Here, this is my basic idea for the page....

The Romulan sun was a sun located somewhere in the Romulan Empire bla bla bla.

The rest could basically be the same as it is, it's proximity to Romulus doesn't have to be mentioned, only that as a supernova, it's in range. The average Human today, thinks that Africa is a country. I hope people are better educated in the 24th century, but this lady didn't know what Dunkirk is. Her testimony is nothing. Spock's statement that the star threatened much of the galaxy is noteworthy. His shock that he wasn't able to get to the supernova in time to save Romulus was also very real.

This is inconceivable to me, that you're willing to say that the movie was retconned from continuity because some random reporter referred to a star as a Romulan sun? I don't get it. Both are equally canon, so why do you choose what she says over the other overwhelming amount of evidence from the film?

I give up though...I'm not trying to fight this anymore. I think it's silly, but I'm done, I feel as though I've said all I need to, and I also feel as though it is an overwhelming amount of reasons to proceed that way. The way I was suggesting we write it, makes the canon line up together, but they way it's written now, contradicts canon. I realize that sometimes we don't have enough information and so it can't be decided either way, in other words we just report as we see, but this doesn't qualify, since we have the evidence we need. I for one would be angry if all of the sudden we just decide that Spock's final mission didn't mean anything. And yes, maybe I'm less neutral than I ought to be, but that's because I love Star Trek and its' canon, and I don't like holes that big.

--Noah Tall (talk) 05:47, February 7, 2020 (UTC)

Supernova year revision

(Caution: SPOILERS from PIC 102)

So...I guess PIC is forcing a revision to the year of the supernova then. PIC 101 indicated it was the 10th anniversary of the supernova, and then 102 shows that the synth attack on Mars in Children of Mars was 2385 and the show is 14 years later — thereby confirming PIC as 2399, and retconning the supernova to 2389. Unless I've missed something somewhere? I'm happy to be wrong! — DigiFluid^{(Whine here)} 12:22, January 31, 2020 (UTC)

I don't recall them saying it was the tenth anniversary, just an anniversary. - Mitchz95 (talk) 05:00, February 1, 2020 (UTC)

There was no mention of which anniversary it was, no. The year of 2387 has not been contradicted. --TimPendragon (talk) 10:19, February 1, 2020 (UTC)

The idea that it's been ten years probably originates from Laris implying that she's been with Picard that long. Also if y'all are so confident that it hasn't been ten years, I take it you have been better at deciphering what was said on the news report that was on before the interview then I have? -- Capricorn (talk) 12:04, February 1, 2020 (UTC)

How so? If none of us can make out the rest of the news report, we go with what evidence we have... which still indicates the supernova was in 2387. Like Tim says, there's no mention of which anniversary it is, as far as anyone can make out. The burden of proof is on anyone suggesting that there is such a mention. —Josiah Rowe (talk) 20:12, February 1, 2020 (UTC)

That remark was mostly triggered by Tim's comment, which showed high confidence, but I used "y'all" because I saw a consensus forming that I felt might not be as justified as it might feel. Because you're right that if someone claims it was ten years ago the burden of proof is on them, but if someone states with confidence that that was not said, then they need to be sure about that too. And I can make out shards of that news report, so I figure someone with a better ear then me might be able to make out more. -- Capricorn (talk) 13:57, February 7, 2020 (UTC)

Location

In "The End is the Beginning", there is this line:

Raffi: "But I do know that there are billions of people out there in the Beta Quadrant who are in the burst radius of a supernova."

Can this be used as evidence to argue that the Romulan sun is located in the Beta Quadrant? Furthermore, is it enough to pinpoint the sun to this quadrant in the sidebar?--Memphis77 (talk) 22:01, February 6, 2020 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to say yes. - Mitchz95 (talk) 04:29, February 7, 2020 (UTC)

Absolutely in my book. --TimPendragon (talk) 08:55, February 7, 2020 (UTC)