Stuff[]
I added the external links, and thank you for putting them in the right place! "I will learn" and I think it should read, The Tamarian language "is" the spoken language of the Tamarians, IMO - STMK.... – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Star Trek Man Kent (talk • contribs) at 2005-05-26T06:52:04.
- Articles about non-objects/places are written in past tense. This is discussed Memory Alpha:Ten Forward#Article Tense|here. --Gvsualan 11:44, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
- Additionally, when possible, use the "Show preview" button prior to your final save, so that you may review what you intend to save. This prevents any unnecessary saves, which otherwise consume a lot of unnecessary space. --Gvsualan 11:49, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
The link to "Video of the Tamarian Language" points to a trailer for the "Darmok" episode, and contains no samples of Tamarian language. It ought to be moved to the page dealing with the episode. -- – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.211.249.10. Guest 15:36, 13 Nov 2005 (UTC)
External Language Sources[]
Should we add as much information as possible from external sources such as [1]? What if that site were to disappear? A lot of that information it contains about the Tamarian Language would disappear along with it. As a Star Trek encyclopedia, perhaps we should try to get all available external information into this one location. Thoughts? --Dogbreathcanada 23:12, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Kiyazi's children, their faces wet[]
Someone changed the meaning of this one from "death, mourning" to "It's not serious, I will survive". The new edit is written in the wrong POV, but is the new definition correct? --Bp 09:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- It wasn't me who changed it, but I believe the second definition (It's not serious) is the correct one based on the gesture Dathon made as he said it. Am I right? Who knows? We can only guess. – Gotham23 21:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
If you've ever seen a kid fall down, and then start wailing to get parental attention even though they're barely scraped... yeah, I'm betting this means something akin to, "it's only a flesh wound." – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 50.160.187.218 at 2015-12-02T22:11:11.
"Kadir beneath Mo Moteh" possible alternate translation[]
In the main article, the translation for "Kadir beneath Mo Moteh" is failure to communicate/ misunderstand.
Given the two instances the phrase is spoken,one when the Tamarian first officer says it while laughing, the other Dathon mutters it, it could be interpreted as directed at an individual. Both instances it seems directed at Picard. In the first instance, Captain Dathon immediatly hushes his first officer with a stern "Temarc". When Dathon mutters it, his frustration with Picard's lack of understanding is rather plain.
Given the metaphoric nature of the Tamarian language, it is quite possible that "Kadir beneath Mo Moteh" is a slight or insult roughly calling in to question the ability to grasp concepts. It could therefore be akin to the 20th century American slang expression "Boy, is this guy dense" – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.88.21.11 at 2006-12-12T09:34:04.
Background note[]
- The problem with a language based on metaphors is that at some point the stories behind the metaphors must be told in order for them to be understood. Picard was able to teach the Tamarian captain stories about Gilgamesh and Inkido, indicating that Tamarians can understand conventional syntax, but simply choose not to use it communicatively for some reason.
This paragraph seems a bit too opinionated. Perhaps it could be reworded? --From Andoria with Love 03:21, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- You want to take a shot, be my guest. That's what happened in the episode though. A metaphorical language is nice enough as a plot device, but it has a great big gaping flaw, as I pointed out above.Capt Christopher Donovan 10:07, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, the thing with pointing out flaws is that it is essentially nitpicking, which isn't allowed. That's why I was suggesting it be reworded to be less of a POV and more... encyclopedic. ;) --From Andoria with Love 21:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'll give it a shot, but no promises. Just by bringing up the contradiction, it is going to sound "nitpicky" (though I disagree that pointing out flaws is such). Give me a few minutes and see what you think...Capt Christopher Donovan 21:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
It still seems a bit nitpicky, but it's better. I'll let it slide. Shhhhh... ;) --From Andoria with Love 04:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- I replaced the line (along with another about Tamarian engineering) with the explanations given in a short story from the TNG 20th anniversary anthology. 'I'm a law student, not a linguist', so I don't know if this covers all the practical problems with Tamarian. It is, however, better than fan speculation/nitpicking.– Cleanse 05:30, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel[]
Someone defined this as "to work toward a common goal." But isn't that the definition of "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra?" Why would they need to create a new term for it? I'm positive that "Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel" means "successful first contact between alien cultures," or "to establish peaceful relations," and I've changed the article. I left the alternative definition as acknowledgment that I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not. What do others think? – Gotham23 21:06, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- Since it wasn't said specifically, we should be as broad as possible. In my opinion it was better the first way, but I'm not going to go and change it unless others think so.--31dot 23:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Inspirations[]
Information on inspirations or connections to other SF would be welcome. For example, the Ascians in Gene Wolfe's The Citadel of the Autarch speak in an almost identical sort of language, but that novel precedes the cited episode by about a decade. (For the relevant excerpts from Citadel see [2] ) Is there a connection or is it just independent invention? --69.113.104.179 00:49, May 11, 2011 (UTC)
Children of Tama[]
Should we add "Children of Tama" to the list of definitions, translated as "Tamarian"? It seems appropriate to me, but I thought I'd bring it up here before I added it. - Mitchz95 04:35, January 15, 2012 (UTC)
- Seems OK to me. --31dot 12:09, January 15, 2012 (UTC)
Language[]
Watching a replay of this episode on BBC America right now and wondering - is it really possible to have a language based on metaphor in the way the article explains? I'm not disputing that children could learn the meaning from context and experience - more that someone had to have read, understood, and possibly even written down again the story of Darmok in the first place. It obviously didn't spring full born out the head of the culture. Someone somewhere in Tamarian culture had to get why Darmok would be a good metaphor for him to even be USED as a metaphor. 68.226.52.2 06:42, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
"Kalesh, when it rises!"[]
I just watched the episode again (one of my favorites) and I have another opinion of the translation (big surprise)...
When Riker and the Tamarian first mate were arguing, the Tamarian cut off transmission right after saying "Kalesh, when it rises!"
To me, that imples that he wasn't willing to do anything until the next day (assuming that Kalesh is a star or moon of some sort).
So basically he's saying, in a short, curt tone, probably because he's under orders he obviously dosn't agree with but is following anyway: "Don't talk to me about this until tomorrow!" (assuming that Kalesh rises daily; or some other period of time)
What do you guys think?
--AdmiralXizor (talk) 16:20, January 15, 2014 (UTC)AdmiralXizor
Temarc[]
Temarc
I don't think Temarc just means silence. Perhaps it has to do with playing too much Oregon Trail but...
"Temarc" means there is a division between two things. It could be two people, two ideas, etc. "The river Temarc." means nothing that can be done at present. "Temarc, the river Temarc in winter" means patience can overcome division... on the metaphorical idea that if one waits for winter, the river would freeze over and can then be crossed by walking over the ice, thus the objective is achieved.
I think that makes the dialogue between the Tamarian captain and his first officer clearer as well as the dialogue between Picard and the first officer.
The first time the Tamarian captain says/shouts "The river Temarc in winter" and holds up his hand, he is telling/reminding his first officer to stop laughing and be patient for the communication difficulties can be overcome with time. There is a definite pause between "Temarc" and "in winter" as if they are two separate sentences. It would mean something such as "Stop laughing/do nothing First Officer. Have patience."
The second time the Tamarian captain says "Temarc" and raises his finger he is acknowledging that his first officer has a different opinion (which apparently includes leaving). Then a split second later, the captain stands and says "The river Temarc" saying that there is nothing the first officer can do about it.
When Picard speaks to the first officer he says: "Temarc, the river Temarc in winter."
Basically he is saying there was a division (caused by the Enterprise firing on the Tamarians) and asks for patience. I do not think he is demanding the first officer to quiet down but attempting to explain he has gained understanding/the objective was achieved.
75.70.124.186 08:36, August 14, 2014 (UTC)
- None of that is indicated by the script. 31dot (talk) 09:12, August 14, 2014 (UTC)
Temba, his arms wide/open[]
I don't think these mean the same thing. I understood it to mean "Temba, his arms open"=offering "Temba, his arms wide"=requesting/accepting.
- When picard offers the captains log as a gift, he says "Temba, his arms open"
- When Picard asks for Dathon to keep talking, he says "Temba, his arms wide"
- When Dathon tells picard to take the torch, he insists "Temba, his arms wide" as if to mean Picard should accept the torch as a gift.
199.3.246.231 19:13, January 23, 2015 (UTC)
Where do the stories come from, I wonder?[]
So how do the Tamarians tell their stories, particularly to children? There has to be some literal level of their language, even if it is only used with and among children. And the officers could have switched to child-language when they realized they weren't getting through. I am watching this episode for the first time and this is bothering me tremendously. Benkarnell (talk) 14:07, August 3, 2015 (UTC)
- Plot questions should be asked at the Reference Desk as article talk pages are for discussing article changes only. That said, I don't believe it was ever explained. 31dot (talk) 23:43, August 3, 2015 (UTC)
Removed[]
It also may be presumed that Captain Picard may have accomplished the following 4 major feats in Star fleet history in regard to the Children of Tamar (Tamarian species): 1.First to hold a Tamarian Captains Log (TNG 5:E2) 2.First to be on record performing the ritual of fighting "Darmok at Jalad at Tanagra" with a Tamarian Captain. 3.First to effectively communicate successfully the language and MEANING of the Tamarians metaphors correctly in real time, describing the heroism and death of the Tamrian's captain stating "Shaka. When the walls fell." A statement that was accepted by the Tamarian star fleet. 4. Picard was added to Tamarian history of events "Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel" (TNG S5:E2 Darmok).
"Presumed," "Star fleet," and obviously unformatted. Most of this is speculation, and not really about the language, more about how cool Picard is. - Archduk3 18:58, September 4, 2019 (UTC)
The Language of Darmok (Sfdebris and Atlantic)[]
Sfdebris shows in his "The Language of Darmok" (sadly not available as of this writing) for the Tamarian language that "metaphor" is likely not what is really going on by using Chinese as an example. He explains that in Chinese "China" is two characters (one meaning "Jade" the other "Walls Surrounding") and the Translator does a word by word translation. So instead of of "China" it would produce the somewhat nonsensical "Jade surrounded by walls" or "Walls surrounding Jade".
The Atlantic's "Shaka, When the Walls Fell" states "But there’s a problem: Metaphor and image are not accurate descriptions of the Tamarian language’s logic. A metaphor takes one thing as a symbol for something else: Juliet’s balcony acts as a figure for romance,..." and presents allegory as a solution (which fits Sfdebris' theory regarding the language).--BruceGrubb (talk) 11:15, December 6, 2019 (UTC)
- I actually had to go and check what SF Debris said about this, because holy shit that is wrong about Chinese characters. Thankfully, it looks like his explanation is a little more accurate. NoirTheSable (talk) 02:15, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
Translation Updates[]
I came to add the new Tamarian phrases used in LD: "Kayshon, His Eyes Open", but was beaten by a few minutes, LOL. But I fully agree with the translations that were added. In any event, this led me to review the existing translations, and I made some changes. I updated "Kadir beneath Mo Moteh" and "Kiazi's children, their faces wet" in accordance with discussions on this talk page from years ago. I also added that "The river Temarc in winter" means not only silence but also cessation, and is an imperative; and that "Temba at rest" is a gracious response. There are other changes I don't feel comfortable making without discussion, because while I don't think the translations in the article are unequivocally correct, I don't have an alternative that I think is such. I think we should break out a section for Tamarian phrases that lack definitive translations, and instead must be described in context. They would be the following:
"Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel" – Currently: "successful first contact between two alien cultures, or to work toward a common goal". But we have no idea if that's the specific aspect of this incident that the first officer has gleaned from Picard's account. It could as easily mean "to succeed in an endeavor at the cost of one's life," or "to teach the Tamarian language to a non-Tamarian." We should just say that the first officer utters the phrase, signifying an addition to the Tamarian language that refers to this incident.
"Kailash, when it rises" – Currently: "a necessary loss or sacrifice". This seems to read too much into things. The Tamarian first officer refuses to take action when their captain's life is in danger. It could also mean "nature should take its course," or "we are under orders not to interfere." I would say that the first officer used this phrase to explain his refusal to act, the specific motivation being unclear.
"Rai and Jiri at Lungha. Rai of Lowani. Lowani under two moons. Jiri of Ubaya. Ubaya of crossroads, at Lungha. Lungha, her sky gray" – Currently: "greeting between two different cultures/races". I don't think there's any reason to assume that Dathon's speech is any less complex or specific than Picard's response (which was independent of it): "Captain, would you be prepared to consider the creation of a mutual non-aggression pact between our two peoples, possibly leading to a trade agreement and cultural interchange. Does this sound like a reasonable course of action to you?" In fact, the Tamarian mention of "crossroads" makes me wonder if the meaning was also similar. We should not attempt to define this series of phrases, just reproduce it, perhaps juxtoposed with Picard's response to suggest the tone and level of complexity of the possible translation.
"Callimas at Bahar" - The only Tamarian phrase included in the paragraph below instead of in the list. I would add it to the list, except that it's another one where I feel the definition is unclear. The text suggests "I feel better now" or "the pain is gone," but I would also possibly interpret it as "it is beyond any aid." I would state that Dathon used the phrase to dissuade Picard's effort to aid him after he expressed that he was in pain, the specific motivation being unclear.
--DavidK93 (talk) 04:08, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
Bazminti when he pulled back the veil[]
I had written the translation as "a spy", and Josiah Rowe updated that to "a spy being revealed", for specificity. But I don't believe that's correct. The question from Kayshon was, "Are you getting 'Bazminti...' vibes from this guy?" So the entire sentence is about the spy being revealed, but in context "Bazminti" only means the spy, while the revelation comes from the rest of the sentence. If Kayshon had asked, "Are you getting spy vibes from this guy," it wouldn't indicate that "spy" means "a secret agent being revealed". A sentence about a spy could be about anything a spy does or that happens to a spy, but wouldn't affect the meaning of "spy". So I'd like to revert that change. --DavidK93 (talk) 13:05, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- I got more of a "he isn't what he appears(says) he is" in as far as "he's showing us his cards" meaning out of it, and not something so specific about it necessarily being a "spy", per se. –Gvsualan (talk) 14:07, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Thinking about it, and the real-world meaning of "to pull back the veil," perhaps it refers specifically to the effort to uncover secrets, from the perspective of the spy. Pulling back the veil normally means to reveal secrets--but not secrets about the person who obtained the information; secrets about the thing that was infiltrated or investigated. So Kayshon was asking, "Do you think he's fishing for info?" Maybe instead of "a spy" a better definition would be "an attempt to obtain secret information". --DavidK93 (talk) 23:05, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- I didn’t think that “pulled back the veil” referred to the actions of a spy uncovering secrets; I heard it as a disguise being removed (intentionally or otherwise). I was imagining something like the story of Don Juan in the harem, wearing a veil to pretend that he is one of the Sultan’s concubines. “When he pulled back the veil” would then be when he revealed his true identity… at least, that was what I was thinking.
- But perhaps, since we got different readings from the phrase, we should use a less specific wording. Would “an undercover operation” cover both interpretations? —Josiah Rowe (talk) 01:47, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
- I've gone ahead and made that change, but if people don't like that suggestion feel free to discuss further. —Josiah Rowe (talk) 22:20, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
Karno, when his mind was fogged?[]
"Karno, when his mind was fogged?" – may refer to someone being confused or corrupted by unknown cause.
Would it be better to add something to the effect of: someone that is drunk or under the influence of drugs. Karno sounds like a real winner of a guy. ‐Yaroze86 (talk) 16:07, 29 September 2023 (UTC)