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:::True. And episodes like this one didn't help. [[User:|]] 06:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
:::True. And episodes like this one didn't help. [[User:|]] 06:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
::::I'm confused too. Turning the line "If only..." into some sort of reflection on the state of TOS seems like a bit of a stretch to me, especially considering the ''very specific'' context in which it is uttered. Please tell me it's ok to remove the "and Star Trek as a whole" bit!--[[User:Jayunderscorezero|Jayunderscorezero]] 12:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
::::I'm confused too. Turning the line "If only..." into some sort of reflection on the state of TOS seems like a bit of a stretch to me, especially considering the ''very specific'' context in which it is uttered. Please tell me it's ok to remove the "and Star Trek as a whole" bit!--[[User:Jayunderscorezero|Jayunderscorezero]] 12:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
:I think you're right, so I removed it. – [[User:Cleanse|Cleanse]] 04:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
== Removed observation ==
== Removed observation ==

Revision as of 04:54, 9 May 2008

Episode talk page

Maintenance links


Is it necessary?

  • Is the Nitpicks section in this article really necessary?--Scimitar 10:03, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Nope. However, it is a good example of how many of the character traits built up over the series vanished in season three (especially in the second half), what Dave Gerrold calls "hardening of the arteries" in the series. Witness the dismay of the security guards in "The Menagerie" as McCoy has them arrest Spock. They are concerned and puzzled. In "TI", by contrast, they are ignoring Janice/Kirk's over-the-top behavior and temper-tantrums like automotons and give the heave-to to critical thinking in the obsession to "follow orders."

(Of course, if they had rebelled right off the bat, the story would've been rather brief).

Plus, we expect better from Mr. Lemli, for crying out loud! ;)

  • Reviewing this episode again, I think the previous nitpick has little merit. We see Janice Lester's histrionics delivered in the person of Capt. Kirk being greeted with smirks and knowing glances between the security guards, and Sulu / Chekov. Of course the comment about Mr. Lemli is very true - he was a star never allowed to shine to his full potential.


What's the Tholian reference in this episode? It doesn't seem to be on the Tholian page. Jaf 05:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC)Jaf

  • Kirk, in the body of Dr. Lester, says to Spock "When I was caught in the interspace (sic) of the Tholian sector, you risked your life and the Enterprise to get me back." 14:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Off Color

Whoever posted that Nurse Chapel is a redhead in the article had better buy a new TV set, or at least adjust the color on their old one. Majel Barrett had dark brown hair in it, not red. - Adambomb1701 16:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, she was definitely a brunette. I've changed it back. --From Andoria with Love 08:31, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
FWIW, the Star Trek Compendium said "auburn", and I agree. --GNDN 16:18, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Having checked out the differences between auburn and brunette hair, I would have to agree it's auburn... so "redhead" wasn't entirely incorrect. :P --From Andoria with Love 00:00, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I see Annorax's fingerprints on the events

  • I'm sure Captain Erika Hernandez and the captain of the Saratoga (in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home) would not share Lester's assessment of women's status in Starfleet.
  • Galloway is alive in this story.
  • I don't know if the absence of Uhura constitutes an inconsistency or not.

All in all, this episode does not mesh well with the rest of the series. And I did notice that Annorax staved off Species 8472's invasion and then restored it (VOY: Before and After). – Korora 03:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

If only...

"Her life could've been as rich as any woman's. If only... if only..."

- Kirk, referring to Dr. Janice Lester, and Star Trek as a whole (last line of The Original Series)

Well, that's got me curious. I certainly wouldn't be surprised to hear Kirk giving the series a proper send-off, but I'm a bit confused. How does this line refer to Star Trek as a whole? Caswin 22:43, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

If only... it hadn't been cancelled?– Cleanse talk 05:10, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Remember that during it's original three year run (IIRC), TOS didn't have the biggest following, and didn't do very well. That is why it was canceled. The cult following got really going in the years later. --OuroborosCobra talk 05:22, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
True. And episodes like this one didn't help. 06:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm confused too. Turning the line "If only..." into some sort of reflection on the state of TOS seems like a bit of a stretch to me, especially considering the very specific context in which it is uttered. Please tell me it's ok to remove the "and Star Trek as a whole" bit!--Jayunderscorezero 12:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I think you're right, so I removed it. – Cleanse 04:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Removed observation

I removed the following personal observation/opinion. If there is a need for it to be re-added, please discuss it here. --From Andoria with Love 07:09, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

This episode may have been another example of Star Trek being ahead of its time, in this case, regarding sexual orientation. It often seems that Dr. Coleman loves Janice, no matter whose body she is in--male or female.

Would we edit a comment on "Let This be Your last Battlefield" if someone made an observation that Star Trek was ahead of its time regarding racial problems? A major issue in "Turnabout Intruder" was sexual (gender) equality. I think we might be pushing the boundaries of what the episode was intended to be about to assert that it was about homosexual rights, but art often transcends its original meanings. I've seen far worse background notes. Hossrex 09:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, to begin with LTBYLB was indeed about racial strife/problems, etc., no ifs and or buts. It is spelled out, right in your face and subtle as a sledgehammer. TI was indeed about gender equality and again was about as subtle as a hammer to the forehead in stating this. However, TI does not make any statement regarding sexual orientation. The poster who originally posted the comment was only reading it that way, and even acknowledged this fact by resorting to the weasal words "may have been." Sir Rhosis 03:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Weasel words? Its a background note. The demands of canon aren't required for background notes. The episode is about sexual equality, where a woman becomes a man, and a man becomes a woman. We're talking about technobabble-transexuals here. Is an innocent comment about same sex relationship acceptance be so out of line in this context? Hossrex 03:49, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not asking that it be "canon," that it only be backed up by something, anything, any small, tiny, tiny, tiny bit of evidence stating this as a fact in the episode itself. The gender equality issue is obvious, the orientation issue is not supported at all except in wishful thinking. So to answer your final question, yes, it is unsupported and, imo, out of line in a factual encyclopedia. Now, if we allow background notes to say "In my opinion this may be," then include every opinion you want to throw in. But, until then, even these types of notes should be cited. EDIT, to add: Now, if there is an internet site or dissertation or article out there that explores the thought that the episode can be "seen" by some as supporting a forward thinking view of sexual orientation, then we could safely put a note saying, "While the episode says nothing about sexual orientation, this article by John Q. Public makes a strong statement that it can be viewed that way today." With a link to the article, site, what-have-you. And just to note, despite my strong stance, this is not directed as a personal attack. Best to you. Sir Rhosis 04:11, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Sir Rhosis said: the orientation issue is not supported at all except in wishful thinking. Except that the whole premise of the episode is about the reversal of gender orientations. The whole episode is about a person breaking from the norms of sexuality. Its more then a "small, tiny, tiny, tiny bit of evidence", its the point of the entire episode. There was no specific statement to the effect, which is why no one is asking for anything beyond a background note, but considering that the theme of the episode was a person breaking away from their typical sex roles, it becomes fairly obvious to anyone who cares to read between the lines. Reading between lines has no place in canonical statements, but there is precedent for it in background sections. Sir Rhosis said: So to answer your final question, yes, it is unsupported and, imo, out of line in a factual encyclopedia. Out of line for a factual encyclopedia? Thats like saying it would be out of line for a "factual encyclopedia" (as opposed to a "factless encyclopedia" I guess) to say anything more about Moby Dick than "This is a book about a Captain named Ahab, who goes out hunting whales". "Factual"? Yes. Complete? Not by a long shot. A part of the purpose of background notes is to point out the themes, and metaphors present in an episode. I'm certain this has nothing to do with the disagreement, but if I didn't know better, I'd think people were opposed to Star Trek making any sort of statement regarding sexuality, and against this deleted section on that basis. I'm sure that has nothing to do with it though. Right? Hossrex 06:01, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, an encylopedia would contain the themes contained within Moby Dick. But they would have to be cited. Who suggested those were the themes of Moby Dick? The encylopedia in effect is listing the FACT that X says the themes of Moby Dick are Y and Z. If an opinion can't be cited, it should be removed. And here, I agree that "may have been" doesn't cut it. – Cleanse 06:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
But there can be no cut and dry right answer regarding the theme, or metaphor of a book. As any literati will tell you, often times a book can have meanings beyond what the writer intended. Have you never read a writer talk about his book, far separated from its release, where he talks about how people have since ascribed meaning to it beyond what he ever thought he was saying? Art is a participatory medium (television especially), where its up to the producers to create their vision, and the viewer to finish the experience. I'm certainly not going to argue the point any further... but not because I'm snotty and upset... but because I don't really know what Memory Alphas policy is regarding this. I personally feel we'd be doing a disservice to Memory Alpha not to allow logically defensible interpretations as background notes. Just my two cents... I don't have anything else to say, so feel free to make which ever decision you feel best. Hossrex 06:37, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
My final thought on the subject: Cite the fact that someone holds this view -- no "may have beens" or "Some people may" or whatever else. I agree that many people "may" hold this view. I'm not beyond seeing that possibility, though I don't think it was intentional. Cite it. One reliable, professional cite would be enough. As I said, an internet article, a print article (whatever Memory Alpha policy considers a reliable acceptable citation) exploring this (perhaps unintended) sexual orientation theme. You're probably right that there is "no cut and dry right answer regarding this theme..." But, again, reliably cite it. Am I sounding like a broken record, or what? Cite it. This has been an interesting discussion. Cite it. Best. Sir Rhosis 09:14, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Citation: [1] Hossrex 09:35, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
"Internet citations" aren't meaningless in general. Bullshit internet citations are, though...
I agree with Sir Rhosis here. If we allow personal speculation to be stated here, we're a) opening up MA for "essay"-type stuff again, and b) will have to allow all sorts of personal speculation. Even in a "background section" (which is pretty much an arbitrary formatting decision made by us, not some holy rule of encyclopedia writing in general), an encyclopedia should state facts, not assumptions:
  • "TI is about gay love" is speculation.
  • "Reliable website X (Link) makes the point that TI might be an allegory for present-day issues regarding sexual orientation" is fact.
Do you see the difference? -- Cid Highwind 10:43, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
What I don't understand is why you're ready, and willing to take the word of some anonymous person, but so unwilling to just think about it yourself. For the record though, if you hadn't asked me a question I wouldn't have replied again. Not because I don't think the theme is present, but because I'm not sure enough how precisely this impacts Memory Alpha policy (an argument I do understand, and accept). The part I don't understand is the illogic of accepting that many episodes of TOS had themes, and made metaphorical statements... the most of which are allowed as background notes... but the refusal to think for ones self to determine the validity of newer interpretations of old episodes. Again, I'll say... unless someone asks me a direct question, this is my last post on the subject. Not because I'm angry, or insulted, but simply because it frankly isn't worth arguing about. Hossrex 21:20, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

"some people"

Sulfer said: (i really don't agree with this at all.. it's one of those "some people" crap speculation statements.) I agree. Memory Alpha would be better if all references required citations, and we didn't allow the suppositions by one person.Hossrex 03:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

This isn't Wikipedia, but they have a good idea. TribbleFurSuit 05:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
In any case, "In the Pale Moonlight" no longer contains speculation as to Batman. Pretty much, if you find "some people" on MA, feel free to remove it. This is my understanding of the situation. – Cleanse 06:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't a "disruption". It was something that I thought was genuinely appropriate, but lacked the weight of citation, so I backed off the point. According to the "In the pale Moonlight" discussion, we're rethinking our necessity of citation. At least in reference to Cleanse's little brother, I guess. Hossrex 06:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Not just "if you find "some people" on MA, feel free to remove it", but unsourced imaginings too. If that stuff can be cited, let's bring it back.
Now, I'll assume good faith. With that in mind, this no longer sounds to me like gleeful spite. It sounds like... ah, good... faith. TribbleFurSuit 06:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
You know, as long as you're bringing up consensus, what do you come up with when you ask yourself "Did I have consensus when I added that?" Does it go both ways, or what? TribbleFurSuit 06:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
You said, yourself, that you added something that was "clearly out of place", only to be removed by yourself after your point was made. Do you still pretend not to have behaved distruptively to make a point? TribbleFurSuit 06:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
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